EX-2 3 QingDeposition15Jan2009.txt QING VIOLATION GIVING QUOTE ANY INFORMATION UNQUOTE AND NO REFERRAL TO HR 0001 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 SOUTHERN STATE OF NEW YORK 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X PETER LINDNER, 4 5 Plaintiff, 06 Civ. 3834 (JGK) (THK) 6 -against- 7 8 AMERICAN EXPRESS, 9 Defendant. 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 11 Federal Courthouse 500 Pearl Street 12 January 15, 2009 13 10:43 a.m. 14 15 DEPOSITION of QING LIN, a Defendant 16 herein, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff, held 17 pursuant to Court Order, before a Registered 18 Professional Reporter and Notary Public of the State 19 of New York. 20 21 22 23 24 0002 1 A P P E A R A N C E S : 2 PETER W. LINDNER One Irving Place #G-23-C 3 New York, New York 10003 PRO SE 4 5 KELLEY DRYE & WARREN, LLP 6 Attorneys for Defendants 101 Park Avenue 7 New York, New York 10178 BY: JEAN Y. PARK, ESQ. 8 9 ALSO PRESENT: 10 Dmitry Zvonkov, Videographer 11 12 oOo 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0003 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 between the attorneys for the respective parties 3 herein that the sealing, filing and certification of 4 the within deposition be waived; that such 5 deposition may be signed and sworn to before any 6 officer authorized to administer an oath with the 7 same force and effect as if signed and sworn to 8 before a Judge of this court. 9 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 10 all objections, except as to form, are reserved to 11 the time of trial. 12 13 oOo 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0004 1 Lin 2 Q I N G L I N, 3 having been first duly sworn by Marian 4 Pender O'Neill, a Notary Public of the State 5 of New York, was examined and testified as 6 follows: 7 EXAMINATION BY 8 MR. LINDNER: 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the 10 record at approximately 10:46 a.m. This is 11 tape number one in the deposition of Qing 12 Lin In The Matter of Peter Lindner versus 13 American Express, Case Number 06 Civ. 384 14 (JGK) (THK). 15 MS. PARK: It's 3834, is the actual 16 Civil Action Number. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's in the United 18 States District Court, Southern District of 19 New York. The deposition is being held at 20 500 Pearl Street, on the 9th floor, on 21 January 15, 2009. My name is Dmitry 22 Zvonkev of Chait Digital and I am the legal 23 video specialist. 24 Will counsel, and all present, please 0005 1 Lin 2 introduce yourselves for the record. 3 MS. PARK: Jean Park of Kelly, Drye 4 and Warren for defendant's American Express 5 and Qing Lin. 6 MR. LINDNER: I'm Peter Lindner. I'm 7 the plaintiff Pro Se and I represent 8 myself, no law firm. 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the reporter 10 please swear in the witness? 11 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you raise 12 your right hand, please? 13 (Whereupon the witness 14 raises his right hand.) 15 THE COURT REPORTER: Do you swear the 16 testimony you are about to give is the 17 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 18 truth, so help you God? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 MR. LINDNER: Doesn't the deposition 21 (sic) have to identify his name? Can he -- 22 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, start your 23 deposition. 24 MR. LINDNER: I wish to start the 0006 1 Lin 2 deposition. We are on the record right 3 now. 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Put on the 5 microphone. 6 MR. LINDNER: I'm sorry. We are on 7 the record right now. We have already 8 sworn in the witness and the videographer 9 has stated the case number. Unfortunately, 10 the case is slightly differently titled. 11 It's Peter Lindner versus American Express 12 and Qing Lin. Qing Lin is being deposed 13 here today. The date is January 15th at 14 10:48 a.m. and the court reporter is going 15 to make a copy of the record. We will 16 begin the questioning now. 17 Q I N G L I N, 18 having been first duly sworn by Marian 19 Pender O'Neill, a Notary Public of the State 20 of New York, was examined and testified as 21 follows: 22 EXAMINATION BY 23 MR. LINDNER: 24 Q So, Mr. Lin, do you know me? 0007 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q How do you know me? 4 A You use to be an employee of American 5 Express and we used to work together. 6 Q Can you go in a little further about how 7 we use to work together? 8 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 9 Q Can you please explain that statement, 10 about working together? 11 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 12 MR. LINDNER: Objection noted. Please 13 answer the question. 14 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park? 15 MS. PARK: Sure. Well, Mr. Lindner, 16 one of the ground rules is, you are here 17 today for a deposition. To the extent that 18 you do not understand or require a 19 clarification, with respect to any question 20 that Mr. Lindner asks you, you need to ask 21 Mr. Lindner for that clarification. From 22 time to time I will make an objection on 23 the record. That doesn't mean that you 24 shouldn't answer the question. Go ahead 0008 1 Lin 2 and answer the question, I'm just noting my 3 objection on the record. So, unless I 4 direct you not to answer a question, you 5 should go ahead and answer. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 A Peter, could you state your question 8 again? 9 MR. LINDNER: Stenographer, Marian, 10 could you state your name for the record? 11 Off the record. 12 (Discussion held off the 13 record.) 14 (Record read) 15 A When you were an employee in CCSG 16 Underwriting team I was the vice-president of CCSG 17 Underwriting. 18 Q Was that the first time we met? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 A I do not remember. 21 Q Do you have an approximate idea of when 22 we met? 23 A I do not remember. 24 Q Do you remember when you joined American 0009 1 Lin 2 Express? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Can you tell me when that was? 5 A 1990, September. 6 Q Do you know which day? 7 A September 17, 1990. 8 Q Do you know what day of the week that 9 was? 10 MS. PARK: Objection. What's the 11 relevance of that? 12 MR. LINDNER: Objection noted. 13 A I do not remember. 14 Q Do you remember who your manager was 15 when you started? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What was his or her name? 18 A Debora Stabile. 19 Q Do you remember what the group was 20 called? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 A Score -- 23 MR. LINDNER: S-c-o-r-e. 24 A -- Development. 0010 1 Lin 2 Q Let me ask a different question. I 3 remember Deborah Stabile at American Express. Did 4 you work for her at any time? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 6 A Please clarify your question. Did I 7 work for her any time? 8 Q Yes, any time in your life? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. LINDNER: Thank you. I have some 11 introductory questions, which I can't find, 12 but, when I do find it, I'm going to -- 13 Excuse me, I just found them. 14 Q So, let me ask this. I meant to ask it 15 earlier. I'm new at this. I've done this before 16 actually. I have done this ten years ago but if 17 you don't ask me to rephrase a question I ask, 18 then for all future purposes we will know that you 19 understood the question in giving an answer. Is 20 that clear to you, Qing? 21 A I understand what you said. 22 Q Thanks. It's clear to you; correct? 23 A Yes. 24 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much, 0011 1 Lin 2 sir. 3 Q Now, continuing on on your history. You 4 worked for America Express starting in 1990. What 5 is your current company? 6 MS. PARK: Objection. Your current 7 company? 8 Q What company do you work for currently? 9 A American Express. 10 Q Do you have the same title now that you 11 had then? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. When he 13 was hired? 14 MR. LINDNER: Yes. 15 A No. 16 Q Do you remember what the position is 17 when you were hired, what your title was? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What is it? 20 A Manager of Score Development. 21 Q Did you have people reporting to you as 22 a manager? 23 A Could you clarify the question? 24 Q Yes. 0012 1 Lin 2 A At the time -- 3 Q When you were hired? 4 A When I was hired, no. 5 MR. LINDNER: Thank you, that's what I 6 meant. Thank you very much. Sometimes I 7 don't ask the right question. I don't have 8 the right form. Ms. Park, if you could 9 help me on that, I'd appreciate that. 10 Q But your title now is different than 11 Manager for Development? Can you tell me what 12 your current title is? 13 A Senior Vice-President and Chief Credit 14 Officer of Open. 15 Q What is the last word? 16 A Open, O-p-e-n. 17 Q What's Open? 18 A Open is a business unit at American 19 Express. 20 Q Is it an acronym or what? 21 A No, it is a planned name. 22 Q O-p-e-n? 23 A O-p-e-n. 24 Q Like an open and shut case. So, are you 0013 1 Lin 2 at liberty to reveal what Open is? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Can you please say what it is? 5 A Open is servicing the small business 6 customers. 7 Q Who do you report to? 8 A Ash Gupta. 9 Q What is his title? 10 A Chief Risk Officer of American Express 11 and the President of Risk Information and Banking. 12 MR. LINDNER: Alright, thank you very 13 much. 14 Q Back when you started working at 15 American Express was Ash Gupta already in American 16 Express? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you know who he worked for or who 19 worked for him? Was he related to your group? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That's 21 two questions. Which one do you want him 22 to answer? 23 Q You said you remembered that Ash Gupta 24 was in American Express when you arrived on the 0014 1 Lin 2 scene. That is correct; yes? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So, when -- Do you know whom -- You said 5 you reported to Debora Stabile; correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Do you know who she reported to? 8 A At the time -- 9 Q Yes. 10 A -- when I joined American Express? 11 Q Correct. 12 A She reported to Yosha Maha (sic.) 13 Q Can you spell that name, please? 14 A No, I do not know how to spell that 15 name, sorry. 16 Q Can you roughly spell it approximately? 17 A No. I only now know how to pronounce 18 the name. She was the Senior Vice-President. 19 Q She was a Senior VP and it's a woman? 20 A It's a woman, yes. 21 Q Do you know who that woman reported to? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Who would that be? 24 A Lou Lombardo. 0015 1 Lin 2 Q Do you know Lou Lombardo's title? 3 A I do not remember the exact title. He 4 -- 5 Q Do you remember approximately? I'm 6 sorry to cut you off. 7 A He was the Executive Vice-President. 8 Q Do you know which group of people he 9 would be in charge of? 10 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, I'm going to 11 object at this point. There is an Order 12 issued by Magistrate Judge Katz restraining 13 your line of questioning to what is 14 relevant to your claim. You are now asking 15 Mr. Lin about positions and people nineteen 16 years ago. There is no relevance to your 17 claims. Move on. 18 MR. LINDNER: Objection noted. Thank 19 you very much, Ms. Park. I'm asking the 20 question anyhow. 21 Q Do you know which groups reported to 22 him? 23 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Mr. 24 Lombardo? 0016 1 Lin 2 Q I'm sorry. Do you know which groups 3 that Lou Lombardo was in charge of or controlled 4 or managed? 5 MS. PARK: Back in 1990 when Mr. Lin 6 was hired? 7 MR. LINDNER: Correct. 8 MS. PARK: To the best of your 9 recollection, go ahead and answer. 10 A I remember Mr. Lombardo is the Executive 11 Vice-President responsible for all Servicing 12 Centers of America Express and Credit Risk 13 Management. 14 Q So, there are two parts here. One would 15 be the Servicing Centers, and they were not 16 physically located in New York City, is that 17 correct? Some of them were but some of them were 18 not? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Can you tell me where they were located? 21 A Are you asking an exact address? 22 Q No, just the city or state? 23 A New York City. 24 Q Yes. 0017 1 Lin 2 A Queensborough, North Carolina. 3 Q Yes. 4 A Phoenix, Arizona. 5 Q Yep. 6 A Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and I might 7 remember Jacksonville Florida. There could be 8 other centers I do not remember. 9 Q Could another city be Salt Lake City? 10 A Yes. 11 Q It could be or you think it is? 12 A I think it is. I remember, yes. 13 MR. LINDNER: It is easy to forget 14 things under all this pressure. I 15 understand. 16 Q So, he had quite a number of people 17 working for him. He had, like, literally hundreds 18 of people at four or five different United States, 19 states? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Who is 21 "He?" 22 MR. LINDNER: Oh, sorry, Mr. Lombardo. 23 Hopefully, the VP was in charge of hundreds 24 of people in several different states? 0018 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: How was Mr. Lin going to 3 know that. He was the manager. How was he 4 supposed to know what Mr. Lombardo was 5 supervising? 6 MR. LINDNER: He might know. I'm 7 asking. 8 Q Do you know? 9 A Are you making a statement? 10 Q I'm asking a question. Do you know if 11 Lou Lombardo had control of servicing people 12 across several different states encompassing 13 hundreds of people? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. I'm 15 also going to repeat, Mr. Lindner, this 16 line of questioning is completely 17 irrelevant to your actions right now. 18 MR. LINDNER: Your objection is -- 19 MS. PARK: You continue at your own 20 pearl. 21 MR. LINDNER: Thank you. Your 22 objection is noted. 23 Q Can you answer the question though, 24 Qing? 0019 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Go ahead and answer it the 3 best that you can. 4 A Your statement is true. 5 Q That there are hundreds of people? 6 A Maybe more than that. 7 Q Maybe thousand? 8 A Yes. 9 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. 10 Sometimes it's not the exact address of an 11 operation center. You know, I don't need 12 the street address. Sometimes the state or 13 better even a city, you know. You know, 14 knowing that it's thousands is different 15 than small. 16 Q So, let me just iterate it here. That 17 you had a title of manager, and you had no people 18 working under you, and then you reported to Debora 19 Stabile, who was a manager, and then she reported 20 to a woman senior VP, whose name I hope we can 21 figure out, and she reported to Lombardo who was 22 in charge of thousands of people. 23 So, let's see. If you are the manager, 24 so your third level manager was in charge of 0020 1 Lin 2 thousands of people. That's pretty high up on the 3 food chain. Would you say that's pretty high up 4 in the organization? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. First 6 of all, you have grossly mischaracterized 7 Mr. Lin's testimony. He didn't testify 8 that Ms. Stabile was a manager. 9 Furthermore, he had testified Yosha Maha 10 (sic), whatever, was a manager. He has 11 testified that she was a senior 12 vice-president and he further testified 13 that Mr. Lombardo was an executive 14 vice-president and I'm going to ask you to 15 move on at this point. This has no 16 relevancy to your claim -- 17 MR. LINDNER: I appreciate that 18 your -- 19 MS. PARK: Move on. Move on 20 Mr. Lindner. 21 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, you are not 22 controlling this. If you wish to make an 23 objection you have -- 24 MS. PARK: I've made my objection. 0021 1 Lin 2 Move on. 3 MR. LINDNER: Thank you. I'm not 4 going to move on. I'm doing what I'm 5 doing. Please do not interrupt me again or 6 I'll cite you to the judge for being 7 obstructionist. 8 MS. PARK: Fine, call the judge. 9 MR. LINDNER: Your objection is noted. 10 At the next break you can call the judge. 11 Q So, Qing, let me see if I get this 12 right. I put down on my notes here that Debora 13 Stabile was your manager. Would you agree with 14 that assessment, now having thought about it? 15 A I'm sorry, what is the question? 16 Q Was Debora Stabile your manager in 1990, 17 at any point in 1990? 18 A At the time when I joined American 19 Express she was my manager. 20 MR. LINDNER: Okay, I think, Ms. Park, 21 your objection was that I 22 mischaracterized -- 23 MS. PARK: You called her a manager. 24 She wasn't a manager. She was a director. 0022 1 Lin 2 THE WITNESS: Can I clarify? 3 MS. PARK: Sure. 4 THE WITNESS: If you are asking me, 5 "What is Debora Stabile's title?" I 6 answered that. Do you want me to clarify 7 that? 8 MS. PARK: Sure. 9 MR. LINDNER: You can, if you want to. 10 That is very nice. 11 A Deborah Stabile was the vice-president 12 of Score Development. 13 Q So -- But you used the term manager and 14 you meant it just like you would say, the 15 Secretary of Defense his manager is the president. 16 It's not saying it is a low level job, you are 17 just saying say whom they directly report to? 18 A So, it would be more accurate to say she 19 was my supervisor. 20 Q Okay, and I wouldn't say Debora Stabile 21 is a supervisor at American Express, but I get 22 what you mean. 23 A But in American Express terminology she 24 was my leader. 0023 1 Lin 2 Q So, your leader was Deborah Stabile, 3 that's a first level. Her leader was the senior 4 VP, who was a woman, that's a second level and her 5 leader was Lou Lombardo, that's a third level, and 6 he was the third level leader of you. In business 7 school parlance they would say the third level 8 manager. Is that correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Thank you. So then three levels up you 11 have a person who is in charge of hundreds and 12 perhaps thousands of people; correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Thank you. I just want to clarify that. 15 You also said that he was not only in charge of 16 Servicing Centers, Lou Lombardo was also in charge 17 of Risk Management, and that is a different type 18 of animal than the people who work in an Operation 19 Center; is that correct? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. There 21 is no testimony about Operation Center. 22 What do you mean by animal? 23 Q It's a different type of organization to 24 have an Operation Center than a Risk Management? 0024 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. There 3 is no testimony about an Operation Center. 4 MR. LINDNER: Objection noted. 5 Q When I said, "Operation Center," I think 6 you used the term Servicing Center. Do you 7 understand what a Servicing Center is, Qing? 8 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 9 answered. 10 Q Do you understand what it is? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Can you explain what the difference 13 between a Servicing Center and an Operation Center 14 is? 15 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 16 Q Qing, do you know what an Operation 17 Center is? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Can you explain the difference between a 20 Servicing Center and an Operation Center? 21 A There is no difference. People use 22 these two terms interchangeably. 23 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much, 24 Qing. Ms. Park, I note for the record you 0025 1 Lin 2 were saying that I was calling it an 3 Operation Center when it was a Servicing 4 Center -- 5 MS. PARK: Move on. 6 MR. LINDNER: I shall. -- when those 7 terms are used synonymously. You objected 8 before that I called Debora Stabile a 9 manager when she was a VP, but in business 10 school parlance that's how it is used. 11 Sometimes these terms are used casually -- 12 MS. PARK: Move on. 13 MR. LINDNER: I shall move on. I just 14 need to point out, please, when you make 15 your objections, sometimes I know what I'm 16 talking about, not all the time, but in 17 this case -- in these two cases, I did. 18 Alright? Thank you very much. 19 Q So, can you characterize the Risk 20 Management Group and how they differ from, let's 21 say, an Operations Group? 22 A Could you be more specific? 23 Q I surely can. In an Operations Group 24 what do you feel would be the minimum educational 0026 1 Lin 2 requirement to be interviewed or to be accepted 3 for a job? 4 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Are you 5 asking him back in 1990? Are you asking 6 his understanding now? 7 MR. LINDNER: I'll break it into two 8 parts. 9 Q Back in 1990, as you understand the 10 business, what do you feel the educational 11 background is needed to be in operations at one of 12 the Operation Center? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 14 A Could you clarify your question? What 15 job in the Servicing Center? 16 Q Any job. Any job that is not the type 17 of job that is like a janitorial job. Any job 18 that is working at a desk. Can you characterize 19 the educational requirements? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Mr. Lin 21 has just testified he was a manager of 22 Score Development. How is he supposed to 23 have knowledge back in 1990, of what 24 positions existed for people in the 0027 1 Lin 2 Operations Center. 3 Q Mr. Lin, were you aware of what the 4 people in the Operations Center did in 1990? 5 A Could you clarify at what time? If you 6 are asking -- 7 Q In 1990? 8 A -- my knowledge now. 9 Q In 1990? 10 A When I joined the company? 11 Q Yes? 12 A The first day when I joined the 13 company -- 14 Q First day. 15 A -- I was not aware of that. 16 Q How about after a few months? Were you 17 aware of what the Operations Center did? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Were you aware of the type of people who 20 were there? Had you met them? For instance, 21 let's break it into parts, had you met any people 22 in the Operations Center? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Had you visited an Operation Center at 0028 1 Lin 2 that time? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you see what type of jobs the 5 Operation Center people were doing? 6 A Yes. 7 Q If you were promoted to do the same job 8 as they were doing, would you consider that to be 9 a good promotion or a bad promotion? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 11 MR. LINDNER: Noted. 12 A Could you please specify what job in the 13 Operation Center. There are different level of 14 jobs. There are a wide range of jobs. So, I 15 cannot answer a general question about thousands 16 of jobs in the Operation Center. 17 Q Oh, that's true. But maybe we can break 18 it down into pieces. I always talk about the 19 algorithm Divide and Conquer. Are you familiar 20 with the divide and Conquer Algorithm in Computer 21 Science, Qing? 22 A No. 23 Q Well, it's basically, you break 24 something down into pieces and then you try to 0029 1 Lin 2 solve the individual pieces. So, I'm going to try 3 to employ the technique right now and that is why 4 I'm going to ask you: Were you aware that there 5 are some people who didn't graduate high school 6 who were working at the Operations Center 7 answering phones? 8 A No, I was not aware of that. 9 Q So, do people at the Operation Center 10 answer phones? 11 A Some people do. 12 Q But that would not be a type of job that 13 you would aspire to; correct? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. You can 15 answer. 16 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, can you tell 17 me what part of the form you did not like? 18 MS. PARK: My objection is noted. I'm 19 not having an argument with you about my 20 objection to form. 21 MR. LINDNER: I just want to know. 22 MS. PARK: No, let's move on. 23 THE WITNESS: Can I hear the question 24 again. 0030 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: Can you reread the 3 question, Marian, please? 4 (Record read) 5 A I have not thought of taking that job. 6 Q Do you have any idea, rough numbers, of 7 what salary you got back in 1990? 8 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park, this is my 9 privacy income information. Do I have to 10 release it? 11 MS. PARK: No. I'm going to direct my 12 client not to answer that question. 13 MR. LINDNER: Please, note it on the 14 record that the client refused to answer, 15 and it was directed by the attorney, and 16 that I wish to get a Ruling from the judge 17 on that. 18 Q Did you apply for a position that was 19 publicly advertised? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 21 Q Did you apply to American Express for a 22 job? 23 MS. PARK: When? 24 MR. LINDNER: In 1990. 0031 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Before or after he got the 3 job? 4 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much 5 Ms. Park. 6 Q Do you understand my question? 7 A No, I do not. 8 Q In 1990 you started working for American 9 Express, you said on September 17, 1990. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Prior to 1990, how did you find out 12 about the job, prior to September 17, 1990. 13 A I find out through Debora Stabile. 14 Q How did you know Debora Stabile? 15 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 16 MR. LINDNER: I'm not sure what your 17 objection is but it's noted. 18 MS. PARK: You haven't established 19 that he knows Debora Stabile. You are 20 assuming information that hasn't been 21 testified to. 22 MR. LINDNER: He just said -- Can you 23 read back what he just said? 24 MS. PARK: He just testified he found 0032 1 Lin 2 out about the job through Debora Stabile. 3 MR. LINDNER: Can you read back Qing 4 Lin's answer on what he said about Debora 5 Stabile? 6 (Record read) 7 Q Did you know Debora Stabile prior to 8 September 17, 1990? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Thank you. How did you know her? 11 A She was the Assistant Commissioner of 12 Sanitation Department of New York City. 13 Q How -- Did you meet her there? 14 A No, I was employed at Sanitation 15 Department of New York City. 16 Q You were a New York City employee or 17 were you a consultant? 18 A I was a New York City employee. 19 Q How long did you work for New York City, 20 approximately? 21 A Be more specific, because I have two 22 periods of working for New York City. 23 Q That would be good. You can tell me the 24 two periods. 0033 1 Lin 2 A Collectively, the total length I work 3 for New York City is somewhere between -- I don't 4 remember exactly. Somewhere between 20 months to 5 22, 21 months. 6 Q Okay. And can you tell me the first 7 period and the second period? 8 A The first period is from 1986 to -- End 9 of 1986 to the middle of 1988. Second period is 10 from, I think, first half of 1990 to September of 11 1990. So, my calculation of 20 to 22 months might 12 be off a little bit. 13 Q But it sounds more accurate than most 14 people, I would say. So, you are pretty good at 15 numbers and computing; would that be fair to say? 16 MS. PARK: Objection to form. You can 17 answer. 18 A That is your observation. 19 Q Have you ever had a test that evaluated 20 your mathematical abilities relative to other 21 people? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 23 A Clarify your question. What type of 24 test? 0034 1 Lin 2 Q Have you ever taken the Scholastic 3 Aptitude Test, which is a college entry test in 4 the United States? 5 A Do you mean SAT? 6 Q SAT, that is correct, yes? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you attend a college? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you graduate from a college? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Can you tell me the name of the college? 13 A Tsing Hua University. 14 Q The first word of that, is that the same 15 as your first name? 16 A No. 17 Q Can you spell the name of the 18 university? 19 A T-s-i-n-g H-u-a. 20 Q And you graduated in what year? 21 A 1982. 22 Q Do you remember what your subject was, 23 your specialty, your major? 24 A Automation. 0035 1 Lin 2 Q Automation? 3 A Yes, A-u-t-o-m-a-t-i-o-n. 4 Q Is that computer controls? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 6 Q Can you describe what Automation is? 7 A Automation is study, control theory and 8 applied it in industry settings. 9 Q Do they use computers in that field? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 11 Q But you can answer. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you use computors in your job now? 14 A Yes. 15 Q So, would it be fair to say that you 16 have been using computers in one form or another 17 from 1982 or earlier till 2009? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Would it be fair to say that even as 20 recently as this week you have used a computer? 21 A Yes. 22 Q I appreciated your answer but I'd like 23 to go back to your Tsing Hua background. That 24 college is located in what country? 0036 1 Lin 2 A China. 3 Q Were you in any -- Since you didn't take 4 the SAT had you taken any test in China that 5 ranked people according to ability? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Can you describe any of those tests and 8 were any of them noteworthy? 9 A College Entrance Exam. 10 Q How did you do in that? 11 A I do not remember my exact scores but I 12 was admitted by the university. 13 Q Admitted by the -- 14 A Tsing Hua University. 15 Q Do they have, in China, any test that 16 ranked the entire nation or contests? 17 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Are you 18 asking his knowledge now or at the time he 19 took the test? 20 MR. LINDNER: At the time. 21 A At the time of the test, no. 22 Q Prior to 1990, had you taken any test in 23 China that was a nationwide test? 24 A Nationwide test? 0037 1 Lin 2 Q In other words more than just a 3 university test but a test that was given at 4 several high schools or several universities? 5 A Your question is nationwide, that's 6 whole country. 7 Q Well, for instance, if one part of the 8 country was not included. For instance, like, if 9 you'd say it's a nationwide test, even if Texas 10 were not included, Texas is part of the nation, so 11 therefore you wouldn't say, "I'm not taking a 12 nationwide test because it was only done in 49 13 states not in 50 states." So, I'm asking -- I 14 would hope if there were a test admitted in 49 15 states and I said, "Had you taken a nationwide 16 test?" You would say, "Yes," and not say, "No." 17 So, let me ask -- 18 MS. PARK: You know what, I'm 19 directing my client not to answer. Move 20 on. This is not relevant. Move on. 21 MR. LINDNER: Your objection is -- 22 MS. PARK: Mark the transcript for a 23 ruling. Move on. 24 MR. LINDNER: Please mark -- 0038 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: I'm directing my client not 3 to answer. Move on. 4 Q I understand that. However, I'm asking, 5 was there a test that was administered among 6 thousands of people, among hundreds of miles that 7 you took? 8 MS. PARK: Objection. I'm directing 9 my client not to answer. 10 A I'm following my attorney's advice. 11 MS. PARK: That's fine. You don't 12 have to say anything Qing. Move on. 13 Q When you applied to American Express, 14 did you give them any documents? 15 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 16 A Could you clarify what you mean by 17 document? 18 Q Were you accepted to American Express 19 and started working there without any paper 20 documents being given to American Express? 21 A I'm sorry. So, what do you mean 22 document, my resume? 23 Q Did you have a resume? 24 A Yes. 0039 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: I'm requesting -- 3 Ms. Park, have you produced that resume? 4 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, Document 5 Discovery is closed. You are not getting 6 anymore documents and you are not getting 7 any documents from Mr. Lin, okay? So, that 8 is a standing objection. Go ahead and 9 request all you want. You are not getting 10 anything. 11 MR. LINDNER: I request it. 12 Q So, what I am asking here is do you have 13 a resume from 1990. Do you physically still have 14 that resume or that is no longer existing or you 15 would you have to look to find it? Can you please 16 tell me the status -- 17 A I do not believe it still exists. 18 Q Now, if you had your resume you gave it 19 to Debora Stebile? 20 A I do not remember who did I give it to. 21 Q Did you perhaps give it to American 22 Express? 23 A Yes. 24 Q You were a manager and you are in a 0040 1 Lin 2 charge of -- Let me ask it in a question. Are you 3 in charge of some people? 4 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Now or 5 when he was hired? 6 MR. LINDNER: Now. 7 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 8 didn't testify he was a manager. He 9 testified that he is a Senior 10 Vice-President and Chief Credit Officer. 11 Q I think you are no more a manager than 12 Debora Stabile or Lou Lombardo is a manager. I'm 13 not talking about the specific title but I'm 14 asking, do you manage people? 15 A As of today? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Can you give me an approximate idea of 19 how many people you manage? 20 A Could you clarify the question in terms 21 of my direct report or the people in my 22 organization? 23 Q Well, I appreciate that you broke it 24 down. Let's do the direct report. How many 0041 1 Lin 2 people directly report to you, roughly? 3 A Five. 4 Q Five people, okay. And how many people 5 do you directly report to? 6 A I'm sorry. How many people who are my 7 leader? 8 Q Yes. But you might have dotted line 9 responsibilities. You might say "Ten." You might 10 say, "One." You might say, "Two." I don't know 11 what your answer is. So, how many people do you 12 directly report to? 13 A So, including dot line? 14 Q Well, let's break it up into two parts. 15 Who do you directly report to and how many do you 16 have dotted line responsibility, as I understand 17 the term? 18 A One direct line reporting-ship. 19 Q And that was Ash Gupta that you 20 previously testified to; correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And dotted line? 23 A One. 24 Q And who is that? 0042 1 Lin 2 A Susan Sobbat. 3 Q And you can you spell her last name? 4 A S-o-b-b-a-t. 5 Q Do you know her title? 6 A President of Open. 7 Q Do you know who she reports to? 8 A Al Kelly. 9 Q Do you know what the L stands for -- 10 A Al. 11 Q Oh, Al, as in Al Kelly. 12 A A-l, yes. Al Kelly. 13 Q Do you know what his title is? 14 A President of American Express Company. 15 Q I guess I haven't looked at my Annual 16 Report for a while. I didn't realize he was 17 president. Who is chairman of American Express? 18 A Ken Chenault. 19 Q And how does Al Kelly and Ken Chenault 20 relate to each other? 21 A Objection to form. 22 Q Does one report to the other or are they 23 the same level, or what? 24 A Al Kelly reported to Ken Chenault. 0043 1 Lin 2 Q And your direct boss is Ash Gupta. Now, 3 who does he report to? 4 A Al Kelly. 5 Q Okay. So, your third-level manager is 6 Ken Chanault. You report to Ash, Ash reports to 7 Al, Al reports to Ken, your third-level manager. 8 So, your third-level manager, when you joined the 9 company, was in charge of perhaps a thousand 10 people, several hundred maybe, several thousand 11 people. Ken Chenault is in charge of roughly how 12 many people? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. You 14 know, in fact, I'm going direct my client 15 not to answer that. This is not relevant, 16 Mr. Lindner. Why is this relevant to you? 17 MR. LINDNER: The objection -- 18 MS. PARK: Why is this relevant to 19 you? 20 MR. LINDNER: I don't think I have to 21 answer to you. 22 MS. PARK: Then fine. Mark it for a 23 ruling. I'm directing my client not to 24 respond. 0044 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: It is leading to 3 discoverable evidence. 4 Q I wish to know how many people in 5 American Express who Ken Chenault -- you've told 6 me Lou Lombardo was in charge of roughly a 7 thousand people maybe. Ken Chenault is in charge 8 of roughly how many people? 9 MS. PARK: Objection. I'm going to 10 direct you not to answer. 11 MR. LINDNER: Can we request a ruling 12 on not answering on number of people 13 employed at Amex? 14 MS. PARK: That wasn't your question. 15 Q How many people were employed at Amex? 16 A I do not know the exact number. 17 Q How about the approximate number? 18 A Approximately 70,000. 19 Q Seven zero? 20 A Yes. 21 Q So, about 70,000, and you could say 22 that, of those 70,000, approximately 70,000 report 23 directly or indirectly to Ken Chenault. Would you 24 say that? 0045 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. In 3 fact, no. Don't answer that question. 4 Mark it for a ruling. 5 Q If somebody were to say that Ken 6 Chenault was in charge of about a 70,000 person 7 organization, would that be accurate or 8 inaccurate? 9 MS. PARK: Don't answer that question. 10 Move on. 11 MR. LINDNER: I wish to have the 12 answer on record. Your objection is noted. 13 I wish to have Qing please answer it. 14 MS. PARK: No, I'm directing him not 15 to answer. Move on. 16 MR. LINDNER: I wish to note that I 17 feel that Ms. Park is acting 18 obstructionist. We will continue. I'm 19 going to move onto a different area. 20 Q You stated that your name is Qing Lin. 21 Is that your full name or do you have a middle 22 name or do you have any other -- Can you tell me 23 what your full name is? 24 MS. PARK: I'm directing my client not 0046 1 Lin 2 to answer. Move on. 3 MR. LINDNER: Can you state what your 4 objection is -- 5 MS. PARK: It's not relevant. Judge 6 Katz issued an order saying that he is to 7 limit his questioning of the witnesses to 8 matters relevant to the complaint. 9 MR. LINDNER: I wish to know his name. 10 MS. PARK: You have his name. Move 11 on. 12 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking can -- You 13 refuse to have him say what his full name 14 is? 15 MS. PARK: Correct. Move on. 16 MR. LINDNER: Can you please note that 17 objection. Marian, I'm going to ask you a 18 technical question here. Every time an 19 objection is noted, if we were on the phone 20 with the judge, would you be able to get 21 all the locations where an objection was 22 noted and we requested a ruling from the 23 judge, Marian? 24 THE COURT REPORTER: If I have time to 0047 1 Lin 2 look through it, yes. 3 MR. LINDNER: Would it take you, like, 4 a minute or would it take you like ten 5 minutes or half an hour? You don't know? 6 Do you know, Dmitry, how long it would 7 take? 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I don't know. 9 MR. LINDNER: No experience. Could 10 you do it in two minutes? Can you look for 11 objections or not? 12 THE COURT REPORTER: I can look 13 through the transcript for the objections. 14 MR. LINDNER: Okay, thank you very 15 much. Whew! I think it is highly unusual 16 when somebody doesn't allow the person to 17 give his name. 18 Q Do you have an alias, Qing? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 Q Do you go by another name? 21 A No. 22 Q Is Qing Lin the name you were born with? 23 A Yes. 24 Q When you were in China? Does that mean 0048 1 Lin 2 you were born in China? 3 MS. PARK: Move on. I'm directing not 4 to answer that question. Where he was born 5 has nothing to do with the claim. 6 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking where he was 7 born. 8 MS. PARK: No, and I'm directing my 9 client not to answer. 10 Q When you worked for American Express I 11 asked you if you had any documents that you gave 12 them and you said your resume. Did you also show 13 them a passport? 14 A I do not remember. 15 Q Do you know if you showed them a Green 16 Card? 17 A I did not have a Green Card at the time. 18 Q Was the reason for you not having a 19 Green Card because you were already a citizen? 20 A No. 21 Q Are you a citizen now? 22 A Please clarify your question. 23 Q Are you a citizen of the United States 24 of America right now? 0049 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: No. I'm directing my 3 client not to answer. This is harassment. 4 What does Mr. Lin's citizenship have to do 5 with your claims? I'm directing my client 6 not to answer and, if you continue, I'm 7 calling the judge because you are harassing 8 him. 9 MR. LINDNER: I wish to continue and 10 so I'll note the objection that Ms. Park 11 refuses to allow Qing Lin to state whether 12 he is a U.S. Citizen or not. 13 Q Do you have a passport now? 14 MS. PARK: Objection. Move on. 15 MR. LINDNER: Objection and I direct 16 the witness to -- 17 MS. PARK: Move on. I'm directing my 18 client not to respond. Move on. 19 Q When you applied to American Express for 20 the job are there any other documents that you 21 gave? For instance, did you give a letter of 22 reference? 23 A I do not remember. 24 Q That's fair. Have you interviewed 0050 1 Lin 2 people for jobs when they were working for you? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 Q Currently, right now, it is 2009. In 5 the past two years, let's say, have you hired 6 anyone who works directly for you? 7 A Could you clarify your question in terms 8 of hiring externally or hiring within the company? 9 Q Good distinction. Let's do internally 10 within the company. In other words, you have 11 vendors and then you have Amex employees. Is that 12 a correct distinction that you were making? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 14 Q When you said -- 15 A I do not understand your question. 16 MR. LINDNER: Can you read his answer 17 from before, Marian, where he said, 18 directly or vendor or something like that? 19 (Record read.) 20 Q What do you mean, "Hiring externally?" 21 A People who are not employed with 22 American Express and were hired into American 23 Express. 24 Q So, to become an American Express 0051 1 Lin 2 employee and before they were not? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And the other one hired internally, can 5 you explain what that means? 6 A People transferred from one job within 7 American Express to another job within American 8 Express. 9 Q Do you hire anybody who might be a third 10 category? Is there another category that you call 11 vendors? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. What 13 are you asking him, if there is something 14 called vendors? 15 MR. LINDNER: At American Express, 16 yes. 17 A I do not understand your question. 18 Could you restate it? 19 Q Yes. Some companies everybody who works 20 for them is an employee. Other companies have a 21 lot of jobs out sourced or do things on a contract 22 basis, so they hire people. Those people 23 typically are called vendors. Can you 24 characterize whether American Express hires 0052 1 Lin 2 vendors? 3 A Do you mean whether American Express 4 selects a vendor to do a task? 5 Q Correct. 6 A Yes. 7 MS. PARK: We stipulate American 8 Express hires vendors, i.e. consultants to 9 perform various tasks. Move on. 10 MR. LINDNER: I appreciate that 11 stipulation. 12 Q So, you personally approved vendors? 13 A Have I personally approved vendors? 14 Q Yes. 15 A I do not understand your question, 16 because to be a vendor of American Express you 17 have to be going through a different department 18 who would be on the vendor list, and I do not 19 approve -- I do not have the authority to approve 20 that list. 21 Q So, if somebody wanted to be on the 22 vendor list, that you have no to authority to. 23 But, if somebody is already on the vendor list, do 24 you have authority to engage them or hire them or 0053 1 Lin 2 give them a contract? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Thank you. And have you used that 5 hiring or contract vendor or vendor in the past? 6 Let's say five or ten years? 7 A Have I engaged a vendor to perform a 8 task for American Express? 9 Q Correct? 10 A Is that the question? 11 Q Yes. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Can you describe some of those vendors? 14 A McKensie & Company, as an example. 15 Q What are they? Can you describe what 16 sort of company they are? What sort of tasks you 17 had them do? 18 MS. PARK: Which question are you 19 asking him? You have asked two. 20 A Do you mean McKensie & Company? 21 Q Correct. 22 A McKensie is a Management Consulting 23 Firm. 24 Q Are you at liberty to tell me what you 0054 1 Lin 2 asked them to consult on? 3 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park, this relates 4 to American Express proprietary 5 information. 6 MS. PARK: Then I direct you not to 7 answer. 8 Q Can you say it in a non-proprietary way? 9 For instance, you might have people to sweep the 10 floors, they be vendors. You might have people 11 who help on outsourcing. You might have people 12 who help on consulting on new products. So, can 13 you say -- You would agree that those descriptions 14 would not be proprietary; correct? 15 A So, let me say this: We have engaged 16 McKensie & Company to perform Management 17 Consulting. 18 Q Alright. So, was this involved in the 19 personnel aspect or the product aspect? Would you 20 feel, for instance, that there is a difference 21 between personnel consultants and product 22 consultants? 23 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, which question 24 are you asking him? You have asked two 0055 1 Lin 2 questions. Which one do you want him to 3 answer. 4 A Since I -- 5 MS. PARK: Just let him clarify. What 6 question are you asking? 7 MR. LINDNER: I'll allow Mr. Qing 8 Lin -- 9 MS. PARK: No, what question are you 10 asking? 11 MR. LINDNER: -- to reply as best he 12 can to -- 13 MS. PARK: To your two questions? 14 Which question are you asking him to 15 respond to? 16 MR. LINDNER: Can you read back the 17 first question, Marian? 18 (Record read) 19 Q Were they involved in personnel? 20 A Could you specify what do you mean 21 personnel? 22 Q Well, yes. I surely can. When you have 23 a temporary agency, such as a Secretary Agency, 24 they are involved with personnel. So, if you need 0056 1 Lin 2 a secretary for a short stint for, you know, an 3 employee is pregnant and has to leave and then 4 will come back, so you wish to have somebody take 5 over, that would be called a personnel. You'd go 6 to a Temp Agency. So, that would be personnel. 7 Now, if you were coming out with a new 8 credit card, and there was a consulting company 9 that had expertise in how to roll out a new card 10 and how to design it and what factors are 11 important in it, that would be a product type 12 consulting. Do you understand those two 13 distinctions? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Can you put that in your own words 16 instead of my words? 17 MS. PARK: Objection to form. What 18 are you asking him to do? 19 A Both descriptions does not fit into what 20 McKensie is doing. 21 Q Can you describe what McKensie does in 22 non-proprietary terms? 23 A I can say they are doing Management 24 Consulting. 0057 1 Lin 2 Q Yes, you did say that already. Okay, we 3 will move on. You have stated before that your 4 title had several different components. I believe 5 two, maybe more. You said you were a senior VP, 6 senior vice-president and you were the Chief 7 Credit Officer of Open; correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q What does a chief credit officer do? 10 A Chief Credit Officer is responsible for 11 the profitability and the credit provisions and 12 the credit performance of the portfolio. 13 Q When you were first hired you were in 14 Score Development; correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Are those two fields related? 17 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 18 Q What you are doing now and what you were 19 doing in 1990? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Which 21 question are you asking him? 22 Q Is what you are doing now related to 23 what you were doing in 1990? 24 A Yes. 0058 1 Lin 2 Q And how do they differ? 3 A Score Development is a function of 4 Credit Risk Management. 5 Q What do you mean by -- If we go to a 6 jury trial there are going to be people there from 7 all walks of life and so there are several 8 different parts. You said credit and function and 9 risk management. So, perhaps you can explain 10 those terms in a way that you might explain it. 11 I'm going to ask you a few questions. I'm going 12 to ask you to explain it several times. One way 13 would be, how you would explain it to an eight 14 year old child, who is interested in what you do. 15 Another way is, how to explain it to a smart 16 thirteen year old. Another way to a college 17 student. Another way to a technical person who 18 works in your field. So, you have the some 19 shorthand way of explaining it, and finally, how 20 you would explain it to somebody who is pretty 21 old. Who -- I always say to your mother. But, 22 you know, a relative who is interested in what you 23 do and might not understand technical talk but 24 wants to get a feel. You know, are you doctor, 0059 1 Lin 2 are you a lawyer, are you a street sweeper? What 3 do you want to do. 4 So, let me start at the beginning. So, 5 you want to explain and we will move up the scale 6 in age. If you want to explain to an eight year 7 old child what your job is, would you be able to 8 do that? 9 A I think I can. 10 Q Can you please do that? 11 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park, is this 12 relevant? 13 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, what is the is 14 purpose of this? There is no juror who is 15 going to be an eight year old child. Why 16 are you asking him these questions? Move 17 on. 18 MR. LINDNER: I'd like to get the 19 answer. 20 MS. PARK: No, move on. 21 MR. LINDNER: Are you refusing to let 22 him answer? 23 MS. PARK: Yes, I'm directing him not 24 to answer and I'm directing you to move on. 0060 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: First of all, Ms. Park, 3 you cannot direct me. You can object and 4 your objection is noticed. 5 MS. PARK: And I can direct my client 6 not to answer and I will. 7 MR. LINDNER: You can direct your 8 client not to answer and I think you are 9 acting obstructionist again. I have to use 10 that term at 11:45 a.m. 11 Q So, can you explain what those three 12 terms mean that you said your title is? 13 MS. PARK: Objection. 14 MR. LINDNER: Noted. 15 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That 16 wasn't his testimony. 17 Q You said that you handled functions of 18 credit and risk management, is that something that 19 you -- Can you rephrase what you said? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That 21 was not his response. You asked him what 22 the difference was between what he is doing 23 now and what he was doing when he was first 24 hired as a manager of Score Development. 0061 1 Lin 2 Mr. Lin then testified that Score 3 Development is a function of credit risk 4 management. That's his testimony. 5 Q Okay, can you explain what function of 6 credit risk management means? 7 A Manage the credit provision line. 8 Q Can you explain that, please? 9 MS. PARK: What don't you understand, 10 Mr. Lindner? 11 MR. LINDNER: I'm not asking you, Ms. 12 Park. 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 14 Q I'm asking if you were to tell somebody, 15 "I'm handling the provision line." Do you feel 16 that's self explanatory and needs no further 17 explanation? 18 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 19 MR. LINDNER: I called for an opinion. 20 I think Qing Lin -- 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 Q Qing, let me ask you a question: Do you 23 consider you're an expert in the field of risk 24 management? 0062 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you feel that you've worked at risk 4 management for a number of years? 5 A I'm sorry, I didn't get your question. 6 Do I feel? 7 Q Have you worked in the field of risk 8 management for several years? 9 A Have I worked in the field of risk 10 management for several years? 11 Q Correct. 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you work in the field of risk 14 management now? 15 MS. PARK: Yes, we stipulate he does. 16 Q So, how many years have you worked in 17 the field of risk management? 18 A More than eighteen years. 19 Q Thank you very much. So, it's fair to 20 say that you are an expert at risk management; 21 correct? 22 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 23 answered. 24 Q Part of being an expert is the ability, 0063 1 Lin 2 I feel, to explain your job to others. Can you 3 explain what risk management is? 4 A Yes, I can. 5 Q Can you please do so? 6 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park? 7 MS. PARK: Go ahead and answer. 8 A Credit Risk Management is managing the 9 risk of the customers default, not fulfilling 10 their credit obligation on a credit product. 11 Q Okay. And believe it or not, I 12 understood it all. However, there are some people 13 who would have a little trouble with that and some 14 people, I would say -- Recently credit has been in 15 the news. So, people are understanding it now. 16 But there is a whole bunch of things in the news 17 these day's about the economic turmoil. Are you 18 familiar with that? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Is he 20 familiar with economic turmoil? Fine, we 21 stipulate he is familiar with the economic 22 turmoil. 23 Q Is that economic turmoil affecting 24 American Express business? 0064 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: I'm going to direct you not 3 to respond. You are not going to respond, 4 Mr. Lin. 5 MR. LINDNER: Can you tell me why? 6 MS. PARK: Plaintiff is advised that 7 he is to limit his questioning of the 8 witnesses to matters relevant to the 9 Complaint, Mr. Lindner. That was Judge 10 Katz's express order. 11 MR. LINDNER: This is leading to 12 discoverable. 13 MS. PARK: No, it's not. 14 MR. LINDNER: Well, you don't know, 15 but let me move on. 16 Q You say you hire vendors on the approved 17 vendor list; is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Have you ever recommended somebody to be 20 put on the approved vendor list? 21 A I do not remember. 22 Q Do you recall -- When you say you are 23 working in risk management -- 24 A Yes. 0065 1 Lin 2 Q -- is there another way to describe it 3 in simple terms, other than saying default? You 4 had a credit -- Can you say it in a simple way? 5 Is there a way you can say it? 6 MS. PARK: Say what? 7 MR. LINDNER: What risk management is. 8 A So, let me take an example of American 9 Express Card. 10 Q Thank you. 11 A People borrow and spend money on 12 American Express Card and then they have, based on 13 the product, they have the right to revolve. It's 14 a revolving product. Then based on product term, 15 they have to minimum dues every month and some 16 people do not fulfill their obligation, and then 17 American Express is facing the risk of the money 18 we leant is not going to get paid back and that is 19 the credit risk we are facing. 20 Q So, credit risk is when people don't pay 21 back money that they owe American Express? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And evaluating who is not going to pay 24 back the money is part of risk management? 0066 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Any evaluating the total impact of those 4 people not paying back is part of risk management; 5 correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And would you say that that is the 8 principal component of your job to come up with 9 the number of how many people will pay, and not 10 pay, and what the net effect will be upon American 11 Express? 12 A You have a pretty good description, yes. 13 Q Thank you very much. I note that I used 14 to work with you in risk management. Okay, we 15 have your title. We don't have your full name 16 because you refuse to answer but I don't have -- 17 MS. PARK: No, I directed my client 18 not to answer. 19 MR. LINDNER: I understand that. 20 Q Can we have the address of where you 21 work? 22 MS. PARK: 200 Vesey Street. 23 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. 24 But in the future, Ms. Park, I'd 0067 1 Lin 2 appreciate if you will allow your witness 3 -- 4 MS. PARK: No, let's move it along. 5 We stipulate he works at 200 Vesey Street. 6 MR. LINDNER: I appreciate that, but I 7 really would appreciate if you would allow 8 him to answer. I think he could have 9 answered that. I think I trust Qing on the 10 ability to answer those questions. 11 Q Can you give me what your phone number 12 is? 13 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park? 14 MS. PARK: You can give him your work 15 telephone number and that's it. 16 A (212)640-3603. 17 Q What is the last digit? 18 A 3603. 19 Q Okay, (212) 640-3603? 20 A Yes. 21 Q That phone is paid for by American 22 Express; correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you have any other phones that are 0068 1 Lin 2 paid for by American Express? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Can you describe those phones? 5 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to 6 release? 7 MS. PARK: No, just describe what the 8 phone is. What other phone -- 9 A The phone is a cell phone. 10 Q Do you recall what make or model it is? 11 A It is a Blackberry. 12 Q A Blackberry phone, thank you. So, you 13 have a home phone, which you will not give the 14 number for; right? 15 MS. PARK: No, under no circumstance. 16 Q And you have a Blackberry and you have a 17 work phone? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you have any other cell phones? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Can you describe them? 22 A My personal cell phone. 23 Q Is that it? 24 A Yes. 0069 1 Lin 2 Q And the personal phone, let's go to the 3 Blackberry phone. That's a Blackberry cell phone. 4 Can you describe what a Blackberry cell phone 5 does? How it is different than a regular phone? 6 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, what is the 7 purpose of this line of questioning? Move 8 on. You are wasting time. 9 Q Can you please describe -- 10 MS. PARK: No, I'm directing my client 11 not to answer. Move on. 12 Q Do you receive messages on your 13 Blackberry cell phone? 14 A What do you mean messages? 15 Q E-mail? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you get text messages on your 18 Blackberry phone? 19 A No. 20 Q So, no text messages but you do get 21 e-mail? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you surf the web on your Blackberry 24 phone? 0070 1 Lin 2 A No. 3 Q On your personal phone, do you get 4 e-mail on it? 5 A Yes. 6 Q On your personal phone do you get text 7 messages on it? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you surf the web on your personal 10 phone? 11 A Yes. 12 Q The Blackberry phone, does American 13 Express pay for some of it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Do they pay for all of it? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do they pay because that is one of the 18 perks of the business? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 Q Do you do any work on your Blackberry 21 phone, Amex work? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Is that one of the reasons why American 24 Express pays for it's charge? 0071 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 MR. LINDNER: Have you provided 4 Ms. Park or Ms. Park have you provided me 5 with the e-mail on that Blackberry phone 6 that are relevant to this case? 7 MS. PARK: Ms. Lindner, there are no 8 e-mails, and we have been through this 9 before and the judge has ruled on this 10 issue. There are no e-mails. There are no 11 electronic communications concerning Mr. 12 Lin that have not already been produced 13 and, furthermore, that are relevant in any 14 way to your claims, which you are 15 constrained to by Order of Judge Katz. 16 Q So, let me ask that question directly -- 17 MS. PARK: No, move on. 18 Q So, Qing -- 19 MS. PARK: Move on. 20 MR. LINDNER: Your objection is noted. 21 Please, Ms. Park. 22 Q Have you sent any e-mail or received any 23 e-mail that uses the name Peter Lindner in it? 24 A No. 0072 1 Lin 2 Q Have you -- 3 A First, let me clarify -- 4 MS. PARK: Let me just clarify. You 5 are not supposed to testify to any e-mails 6 that you and I have exchanged or any 7 e-mails of any communications you've had 8 with an attorney. That is protected by the 9 Attorney/Client Privilege and you are not 10 obligated to -- 11 A Let me answer the question for the 12 question before. 13 Q Sure. 14 A Not as of now. During what time period? 15 Q It's a good question and I'm not sure 16 what the answer is. But can you give me an 17 approximate date when you got the Blackberry? 18 A I do not remember. 19 Q Would it be, like -- Now, it is 2009, 20 January 2009. So, do you think you got it five 21 years ago? Let's say in 2004? 22 A Probably, yes. 23 MR. LINDNER: And we have five minutes 24 left on the tape, so we are going to be 0073 1 Lin 2 finished soon. 3 Q Did you send a message to Ms. Park but 4 also, you know, to a lawyer, but also to some 5 other people at American Express? 6 MS. PARK: Objection. He is not going 7 to answer. 8 MR. LINDNER: He can answer if he sent 9 a message. 10 MS. PARK: No, he can't. 11 MR. LINDNER: He doesn't have to 12 reveal -- 13 MS. PARK: No, he does not have to 14 divulge if he sent me any e-mails, 15 Mr. Lindner, that's protected by the 16 Attorney/Client Communication. 17 Q First of all, have you met with Ms. Park 18 prior to today? 19 MS. PARK: You can answer that, yes or 20 no. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Have you sent e-mail to Ms. Park? 23 MS. PARK: Objection. Don't answer 24 that question. 0074 1 Lin 2 Q Have you sent e-mails to other people 3 and Ms. Park would be one of them on that e-mail? 4 In other words, -- 5 MS. PARK: Objection, I direct you not 6 to answer that question. 7 Q -- as a blind carbon copy or a copy? 8 MS. PARK: No, direct you not to 9 answer that question. 10 MR. LINDNER: And can you answer why? 11 MS. PARK: Yes, that is protected by 12 the Attorney/Client Privilege, Mr. Lindner. 13 MR. LINDNER: Okay, as best I know, 14 Attorney/Client Privilege doesn't stop you 15 from saying whether you sent it, it just 16 says that I can't know what you sent. 17 MS. PARK: That's your 18 characterization. 19 MR. LINDNER: I know that's my 20 characterization. I'm not a lawyer. 21 Q Did you send any e-mails that discussed 22 Fisher Jordan but not to Ms. Park? Do you know 23 who Fisher Jordan is? 24 A Yes. 0075 1 Lin 2 Q Have you ever discussed them, via 3 e-mail, to Fisher Jordan? 4 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 5 Q Have you sent an e-mail to or from 6 Fisher Jordan on your Blackberry? 7 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, are you asking 8 about e-mails -- 9 MR. LINDNER: Please -- 10 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, your first 11 question was: Have you sent an e-mail on 12 it, that has a reference to me on it. 13 MR. LINDNER: Okay, I'm asking about 14 Fisher Jordan. 15 Q Have you communicated with Fisher Jordan 16 via e-mail on your Blackberry? 17 MS. PARK: During what time period? 18 Q At all in your life? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Have you done it in 2005? Do you know 21 when -- 22 A 2005? 23 Q Yes. 24 A I do not remember. 0076 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: That's fair. You don't 3 have to remember. I'm going to request 4 here that we get the log of messages that 5 Qing sent to Fisher Jordan. Ms. Park have 6 you introduced those e-mails. 7 MS. PARK: Request all you want. You 8 are not getting anymore discovery. Move 9 on. 10 MR. LINDNER: But have you -- 11 MS. PARK: Move on. 12 MR. LINDNER: Provided them? 13 MS. PARK: Move on. Move on. 14 THE WITNESS: Can I state one fact? 15 MS. PARK: No, there is no question 16 pending. 17 MR. LINDNER: Yes, you can. Please, 18 I'm asking you, Qing, can you please state 19 one fact? 20 MS. PARK: Go ahead, Mr. Lin. 21 A The e-mails on my Blackberry is 22 duplicated on the Lotus Note, it's exactly 23 identical, the exact duplication of the Lotus 24 Note. That is company's e-mail system. I just 0077 1 Lin 2 want to state that fact. 3 MS. PARK: Sure. There is no other 4 question pending. 5 MR. LINDNER: I appreciate that. 6 Q And you used -- So, you used your 7 Blackberry to communicate with Fisher Jordan or 8 you've only passively observed it or have you 9 actually used it to communicate with him? 10 A Use of my Blackberry? 11 Q Yes? 12 A I do not remember. 13 Q Okay, on your personal phone, have you 14 ever sent a message to or an e-mail to Fisher 15 Jordan or received one? 16 A No. 17 MS. PARK: You are out of tape, Mr. 18 Lindner. Will you please note the time. 19 MR. LINDNER: We have one minute left 20 and, Ms. Park, I'd appreciate it -- You're 21 not in control of this. If you wish to 22 break we can break. 23 MS. PARK: No, we can go on for one 24 minute. 0078 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much 3 Ms. Park. Okay, we will take a break now 4 so that Dmitry can change the tape -- 5 MS. PARK: Could you note the time? 6 MR. LINDNER: I have 12:02. What time 7 do you have? 8 THE COURT REPORTER: Same. 9 MR. LINDNER: 12:02 and we will take a 10 five minute break. Would that be 11 acceptable to Qing? 12 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 13 MR. LINDNER: And Ms. Park is that 14 acceptable to you? 15 MS. PARK: That's fine. 16 MR. LINDNER: Can you call the judge 17 now and talk to him? 18 MS. PARK: Yes. 19 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. 20 Okay -- 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the 22 record? 23 MR. LINDNER: We will go off the 24 record now. 0079 1 Lin 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This ends tape 3 number one. We are off the record at 4 12:03. 5 (Whereupon at 12:03 p.m. a 6 recess was taken.) 7 (12:15 p.m. back on the 8 record.) 9 THE COURT CLERK: It is not my 10 deposition. I recommend you proceed with 11 your deposition. 12 MR. LINDNER: I'm unable to do that 13 because Ms. Park objected and directed the 14 deponent, who is a named person in the 15 suit, not to answer a question. She did 16 that several times. The court reporter is 17 here. She can state what those times were. 18 One of the questions was, I asked Qing to 19 state his full name, in case there were any 20 other things, and Ms. Park refused to let 21 him answer the question. I could be wrong. 22 However, we have a video tape and we have a 23 stenographer. So, Ms. Park, will you 24 respond to that? 0080 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Yes, and I will respond by 3 saying that I confirm, as stipulated that 4 Mr. Lin's name is Qing Lin. I then allowed 5 you to ask Mr. Lin if you went by an alias, 6 and I allowed Mr. Lin to answer that 7 question. I believe that any further 8 questions Mr. Lindner that you are 9 proposing to my client are tantamount to 10 harassment, and I have a very strong 11 interest in protecting my client from you, 12 quite frankly. 13 You have been ordered by Judge Katz to 14 limit your questions to matters relevant to 15 the Complaint. You spent the first hour 16 and a half of Mr. Lin's deposition asking 17 him if he took a national test in China. 18 Where in China he went to university, and 19 what position was he hired into back in 20 1990 and who he reported to back in 1990, 21 and could he state for the record, as if 22 were speaking to an eight year old child, 23 what he does in his capacity as a credit 24 risk management person. None of these 0081 1 Lin 2 questions is even remotely germaine to any 3 of the allegations alleged in the Complaint 4 nor for that matter to American Expresses 5 defenses. 6 I will state for the record that I 7 believe that this Pro Se plaintiff is bent 8 on doing nothing more than harassing Mr. 9 Lin. He has not asked a single question 10 about his claims today. 11 THE COURT CLERK: So, Mr. Lindner, it 12 sounds like you have a stipulation about 13 the deponent's name. Are you guys ready to 14 move on and -- 15 MR. LINDNER: No, I'm not ready to 16 move on. Let me state something on the 17 record. I apologize for speaking over you, 18 Jason. I'm pretty upset that Ms. Park is 19 stopping Qing Lin from saying his full 20 name, which might have taken five seconds 21 or ten seconds, but certainly I think I was 22 entitled to know it and if he would have 23 said the answer and we moved that would be 24 fine. But Ms. Park I feel is being 0082 1 Lin 2 obstructionist. 3 Now, Ms. Park also made a statement to 4 you, Jason, that I haven't asked a single 5 question that was relevant to my Complaint. 6 Actually, I did ask a single question that 7 was relevant to the Complaint. Maybe 8 several. I asked if Qing had an e-mail 9 sent to Fisher Jordan from his Blackberry 10 and I also asked if he had an e-mail sent 11 by his personal phone to Fisher Jordan and 12 he answered both those questions. and I 13 would submit that that's part of the 14 evidence, is if he had a letter to Fisher 15 Jordan, then that is something that we 16 would like to know. 17 THE COURT CLERK: Okay. So, it sounds 18 like you have a stipulation from the 19 deponent about the deponent's name. So, 20 you are aware of the deponent's name. No 21 I'm not. He hasn't answered the question 22 and the problem is, Jason, is that her 23 objection stops him from answering, but 24 this is like one example out of a few where 0083 1 Lin 2 she has objected, and now I think you have 3 also said that Ms. Park is not allowed to 4 stop her client from answering because it 5 is not relevant. She can make an 6 objection. I'm not stopping her from 7 making an objection. I'm noting it on the 8 record but I instruct the deponent to 9 answer and Ms. Park is then stopping the 10 deponent from answering. I wish a 11 ruling -- 12 THE COURT CLERK: May I stop you, 13 Mr. Lindner? 14 MR. LINDNER: Yes, you may. 15 THE COURT CLERK: The question that is 16 on the table though is the deponent's full 17 name, which I heard Ms. Park say that she 18 stipulated to what the deponent's full name 19 was. 20 MS. PARK: Correct, and allowed Mr. 21 Lindner to ask Mr. Lin if he had an alias, 22 and, I believe, I further allowed Mr. 23 Lindner to ask if he had a Chinese name 24 that is different from Qing Lin, and 0084 1 Lin 2 allowed Mr. Lin to answer that as well, and 3 he answered no. 4 THE COURT CLERK: So, it sounds like 5 your questions have been asked and 6 answered. Can you move on to asking 7 relevant questions about your Complaint, 8 Mr. Lindner? 9 MR. LINDNER: Well, Jason, you know 10 I'm Pro Se; right? If somebody says, 11 "Asked and answered," are they then free 12 from having to answering it again? 13 THE COURT CLERK: Well, you have been 14 ordered to -- 15 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking you to answer 16 that question. 17 THE COURT CLERK: Well, you have 18 perceived an answer to your question -- 19 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking -- 20 THE COURT CLERK: It is not in your 21 interest to belabor this issue. I mean, 22 you are consuming time here that -- 23 MR. LINDNER: I'd like to speak to the 24 Judge. 0085 1 Lin 2 THE COURT CLERK: It is your 3 deposition and I suggest strongly that you 4 try to move on -- 5 MR. LINDNER: I understand. 6 THE COURT CLERK: -- without having to 7 bring the relevance of a particular 8 question to the judge's attention. 9 MR. LINDNER: I am not bringing that 10 to the judges attention, Ms. Park is by 11 directing her client not to answer. 12 Now, if Ms. Park directs her client 13 not to answer a question, cause she feels 14 it is not relevant, and I wish to get that 15 answer, today is my day to do it. Is it 16 not? 17 THE COURT CLERK: Yes. Can I make a 18 recommendation? Can the parties agree to 19 try to move forward and not take up any 20 more of the Court's time? 21 MS. PARK: Yes. 22 THE COURT CLERK: Mr. Lindner, can you 23 ask relevant questions? 24 MR. LINDNER: Sure. I've asked a 0086 1 Lin 2 relevant question and I think his name is a 3 relevant question -- 4 THE COURT CLERK: And you got an 5 answer. 6 MR. LINDNER: No, I didn't and-- 7 THE COURT CLERK: Can you move 8 forward. 9 MR. LINDNER: Sir, I have many 10 questions to move forward. I'm calling you 11 during the break. I wish to speak to the 12 Judge please. Can we do that, yes or no? 13 THE COURT CLERK: You're entitled to 14 speak to the Judge but -- 15 MR. LINDNER: I'd appreciate it. 16 THE COURT CLERK: I would like you to 17 take any suggestion -- 18 MR. LINDNER: I understand your 19 suggestion and you are saying, can we 20 continue and not speak to the Judge, and I 21 am saying that, unless Ms. Park says that 22 she will not say something is irrelevant 23 and direct her client not to answer, I 24 would like a Ruling from the Judge. 0087 1 Lin 2 Ms. Park you did before say that something 3 was not relevant and directed your client 4 not to answer; is that correct? 5 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, if I directed 6 my client not to answer on the grounds of 7 relevancy alone -- 8 MR. LINDNER: Yes. 9 MS. PARK: -- guess what? The entire 10 morning would have gone with no 11 testimony -- 12 MR. LINDNER: Have you ever -- 13 MS. PARK: Let me finish my statement. 14 MR. LINDNER: Please. 15 MS. PARK: You have spent the hour and 16 fifteen minutes asking nothing but 17 irrelevant questions. Mr. Lin has answered 18 that. Where I feel that your questions are 19 completely inappropriate and bent solely on 20 harassing my client, I can and I will 21 direct my client not to respond. I believe 22 that there is a real serious risk to you 23 attempting to do personal harm to my 24 client, based on basically your stated wish 0088 1 Lin 2 to harm Mr. Lin, and when you ask questions 3 that are personal, that expose my client to 4 potential harm from you, I will take that 5 risk of directing my client not to answer 6 your question. 7 THE COURT CLERK: Basically, you have 8 to stick to relevant topics. 9 MR. LINDNER: Okay, but if I ask a 10 question and Ms. Park says it is not 11 relevant and directs her client not to 12 answer, is that correct or not. 13 THE COURT CLERK: If you want to play 14 this out, if you insist on asking a 15 question that really has nothing to do with 16 your claims -- 17 MR. LINDNER: But it is Ms. Park's 18 view and not my view. In other words, 19 should Ms. Park be the decider of relevance 20 or not? If I'm saying I'll note her 21 objection but she is directing her client 22 not to answer; is that okay? 23 THE COURT CLERK: If you play this out 24 to the end and ask the Judge to rule on the 0089 1 Lin 2 relevance of it otherwise you are not going 3 to get what you need. 4 MR. LINDNER: I'm not asking that, 5 Jason. Please don't misconstrue me. I'm 6 saying -- 7 THE COURT CLERK: You have to stick to 8 relevant-- 9 MR. LINDNER: I'm saying, what I 10 thought you were just telling me is that 11 Ms. Park cannot say, "That is not a 12 relevant question. I'm directing my client 13 not to answer." And then ceases to answer. 14 THE COURT CLERK: Eventually, if you 15 end up having to talk to the Judge and he 16 has to tell you that it is okay for Ms. 17 Park to direct her client not answer 18 questions that are not relevant, because 19 you are simply harassing her and you have 20 been directed -- 21 MR. LINDNER: She didn't say -- 22 THE COURT CLERK: -- to ask relevant 23 questions -- 24 MR. LINDNER: Jason, please, please, 0090 1 Lin 2 please, I didn't say it with a knife in my 3 hand. I'm threatening. I'm not harassing. 4 She didn't say, "You were harassing my 5 client." She said, "It is not relevant." 6 Please focus, Jason. 7 THE COURT CLERK: That is not all she 8 said. I heard her say those words -- 9 MR. LINDNER: But you didn't hear 10 correctly then. You hear correctly. There 11 were many different times. At one of those 12 times she said, "Harassing." But at 13 another one of those times she didn't say 14 harassing she just said it wasn't relevant 15 and that's what I want a ruling from the 16 Judge On can I get that ruling, yes or no? 17 THE COURT CLERK: Can you hold on a 18 minute, please? 19 MR. LINDNER: Thank you. 20 Off the record. 21 (Recess taken 12:25 p.m..) 22 (Back on the record with 23 Judge Katz at 12:30 p.m.) 24 JUDGE KATZ: What is the issue 0091 1 Lin 2 Mr. Lindner? 3 MR. LINDNER: Well, the issue is that 4 I feel that Ms. Park is being 5 obstructionist and specifically she is 6 deciding that some of the questions I am 7 asking are not relevant, which I note her 8 objection and I'm glad to do so. However, 9 then she instructs her client not to answer 10 those questions and some of them she might 11 well be right but I thought -- One of the 12 questions was, I asked for Qing's full 13 name, and that's on the record, we could 14 find a quote from that, and Ms. Park 15 directed him not to answer. She felt it 16 was sufficient, one stipulation or another, 17 but I wanted to get his full name, in case 18 he had a middle initial or anything like 19 that and she directed him not to answer. 20 Another time I asked for how many 21 people were employed at American Express 22 and she told him not to answer. Another 23 point I asked Qing whether he was a U.S. 24 citizen or not and she directed him to 0092 1 Lin 2 refuse to answer. There might have also 3 been a question when I asked whether he had 4 a passport or not and she refused to have 5 him answer. Another time he stated that he 6 was working in Risk Management and it was a 7 function of, I think, a phrase something 8 like, a function of the Credit Risk 9 Management, and I said, can you explain 10 that phrase in a way that different people 11 could understand it? Let's say, an eight 12 year old child, if you want to tell them 13 what you do; and then a thirteen year old 14 who is intelligent; then a college student 15 who is considering a job; or then to a 16 technical person in your field and then 17 explain what risk management is to, let's 18 say, a relative, an older relative who 19 wants to know what you are doing, and how 20 would you explain it, and she directed him 21 not to answer that. 22 I'm not positive on that, but that's 23 how I see the transcript, and I think that 24 is what indeed was happening. 0093 1 Lin 2 JUDGE KATZ: Why is it that you were 3 interested in answers to those questions? 4 MR. LINDNER: Well, first of all, the 5 job I was applying for uses many of the 6 skills of Risk Management. It was a Risk 7 Management job. 8 JUDGE KATZ: Right. But you weren't 9 applying for a job with American Express. 10 MR. LINDNER: Correct. I was applying 11 for a job with Fisher Jordan, who was a 12 vendor and was a vendor working, or wanted 13 to work with American Express in his Risk 14 Management Group. So, that's how it ties 15 in, but I felt it would lead to the 16 discovery of relevant information, 17 admissible evidence at trial. 18 For instance, one of the questions, 19 which I think Ms. Park objected to was when 20 I asked about did he have any phones that 21 were paid for by American Express, which he 22 said, "Yes," and he identified one as a 23 Blackberry, and he said that was paid for 24 by American Express, and that he gets 0094 1 Lin 2 e-mails on it, and that he has indeed sent 3 e-mails to Fisher Jordan on that Blackberry 4 and so I asked: Well then I'd like to get 5 a list of what those e-mails are and, if I 6 recall, Ms. Park saying, "No, Mr. Lindner, 7 Discovery, that question is finished and 8 you are not entitled to get any e-mails 9 that he might have sent to Fisher Jordan on 10 his Blackberry. Request all you want." 11 JUDGE KATZ: Okay, but that doesn't 12 have to do with the deposition question. 13 MS. PARK: Correct, your Honor. 14 MR. LINDNER: Wait, wait, I'm sorry, I 15 didn't understand what you just said. 16 JUDGE KATZ: That is not a deposition 17 question, getting the documents. That is 18 outside the deposition. 19 MR. LINDNER: During the deposition I 20 said, "I'd like to make a request." I 21 thought when I was being deposed that I 22 would mention a document, she said, "What 23 would refresh your remember?" and I'd say, 24 such and such, and then she would say, 0095 1 Lin 2 "Well, then I request that document." So, 3 I thought if he would say, "I sent e-mails 4 to Fisher Jordan." Then I would like to 5 say, "I request that document." 6 MS. PARK: And, Judge, Mr. Lindner 7 proceeds to want an answer from me on the 8 record, in terms of his requests for 9 records. He wants to have an entire 10 colloquy about what those records are and 11 whether I'm going to produce them. 12 MR. LINDNER: That is actually a 13 mischaracterization, you Honor. I think 14 what I asked is, "Ms. Park, have you turned 15 over such e-mails to me?" And I think that 16 is a simple yes or no or I don't know I'll 17 have to find out and then get back to you. 18 I don't think she answered like that. 19 JUDGE KATZ: Let's get back to the 20 question of the deposition. 21 MR. LINDNER: Sure. 22 MS. PARK: Your Honor, may I respond 23 to Mr. Lindner? 24 JUDGE KATZ: Yes. 0096 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Okay. So, Your Honor, this 3 deposition was scheduled to start at 9:30. 4 It didn't get off the ground until 5 10:46 a.m., largely because of the time it 6 took the videographer to get set up. We 7 just spent this hour and fifteen minutes 8 with Mr. Lindner asking Mr. Lin questions 9 revolving around what his position was, and 10 who he reported to back in 1990 when he was 11 hired. Mr. Lindner then asked him 12 questions about where he was educated in 13 China and several questions about whether 14 Mr. Lin took some kind of test, an 15 examination test that was nationwide in 16 China to test his mathematical or computer 17 aclement (sic) and Mr. Lindner asked 18 questions such as -- I did not direct Mr. 19 Lin not to answer how many employees are at 20 American Express, but what Mr. Lindner 21 wanted Mr. Lin to do is to confirm that Ken 22 Chenault, chairman of the firm, is 23 responsible or is in charge of those 70,000 24 employees. 0097 1 Lin 2 There were also asked questions such 3 as, if he submitted a passport. You know, 4 if he has an alias, which I allowed Mr. Lin 5 to answer. You know, does he have a 6 Chinese name? Does he have a different 7 Chinese name? Which I also allowed Mr. Lin 8 to answer. And, again, Your Honor could 9 not have been more clear in your order of 10 yesterday, which limited Mr. Lindner to 11 questioning witnesses about matters 12 relevant to the Complaint. 13 I believe, based on statements 14 Mr. Lindner has made about Mr. Lin, that 15 these questions, Your Honor, are bent on 16 nothing more than harassing Mr. Lin. 17 Harassing Mr. Lin and getting as much 18 personal or sensitive information as he 19 can, so he can disseminate that information 20 to the public, Your Honor. He has not 21 asked a single question about what Mr. Lin 22 said or didn't say to Fisher Jordan and 23 here we are an hour and fifteen minutes in. 24 MR. LINDNER: Well, actually, Your 0098 1 Lin 2 Honor, Ms. Park made a few misstatements -- 3 JUDGE KATZ: Mr. Lindner, I don't want 4 to waste anymore time -- 5 MR. LINDNER: I appreciate that. 6 JUDGE KATZ: -- because you have to 7 get through this deposition. 8 MR. LINDNER: Right. 9 JUDGE KATZ: And if you don't start 10 asked questions about the matters in issue, 11 you are never going to get through it. So, 12 why are you spending so much time on all 13 these extraneous matters? 14 MR. LINDNER: First of all, they are 15 not extraneous, Your Honor. I feel that 16 giving his name is not extraneous -- 17 JUDGE KATZ: Well, no but -- 18 MR. LINDNER: Can you please amplify 19 when -- 20 JUDGE KATZ: We don't have to amplify. 21 MR. LINDNER: Well, then please -- 22 JUDGE KATZ: Matters related to his 23 passport and immigration status are 24 extraneous. 0099 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: Okay. So, I should not 3 have asked if he had a U.S. passport. 4 JUDGE KATZ: I think it's a waste of 5 time, Mr. Lindner. 6 MR. LINDNER: I understand it is a 7 waste of time but I should not have asked 8 it? 9 JUDGE KATZ: Yes, correct. 10 MR. LINDNER: Your Honor, the reason I 11 asked that is that, at one point, Qing Lin 12 said, "Peter can't work here." 13 JUDGE KATZ: Okay. 14 MR. LINDNER: And so, what does it 15 mean if you say somebody can't work here? 16 To some people that would mean you don't 17 have a U.S. passport or you don't have a 18 Green Card and you don't have the ability 19 to work here. 20 JUDGE KATZ: Mr. Lindner, why don't 21 you ask him if he said that and what he 22 meant. 23 MR. LINDNER: Because we are not up to 24 that, Your Honor. It's a seven hour 0100 1 Lin 2 deposition which we are an hour and a half 3 into it. So, if you want, I can just jump 4 to the end and have him say, "I don't 5 know," and then the whole deposition is 6 over. I am building up and I'm trying to 7 use his information. So, will you please 8 direct the deponent to answer the question 9 of his full name. 10 MS. PARK: I have already stipulated 11 his full name, Your Honor, Qing Lin. 12 MR. LINDNER: I'd like to hear it from 13 Mr. Lin. 14 JUDGE KATZ: He can answer that 15 question. 16 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. We 17 will ask that question later. I appreciate 18 that. Then when Ms. Park feels the 19 question is not relevant she directs Qing 20 not to answer. 21 MS. PARK: That is not accurate, Your 22 Honor. If I were to direct Mr. Lindner not 23 to answer on the grounds of relevancy then 24 guess what, I don't know that even one 0101 1 Lin 2 question would have been answered in the 3 first hour and fifteen minutes. I have sat 4 here. My client has sat here. We have 5 answered questions. When I feel like Mr. 6 Lindner is attesting to do nothing more 7 than harassing my client, and based upon 8 his stated intent to harm Mr. Lin in 9 whatever way he can and in whatever power 10 he has, Your Honor, I have serious and 11 grave concerns. 12 JUDGE KATZ: Okay. 13 MR. LINDNER: The point is that, if I 14 ask a hundred questions, the point is not 15 what is my least relevant question. The 16 point is what is my most relevant question 17 and I felt some of my questions were indeed 18 relevant. So, I will note Ms. Park's 19 objection on the record but I'm asking for 20 a Ruling on this. If Ms. Park says, "Not 21 relevant," and I say, "Your objection is 22 noted but wish the deponent to answer," can 23 I get the deponent to answer the question? 24 JUDGE KATZ: Well, not if Ms. Park 0102 1 Lin 2 thinks you are harassing the client. 3 MR. LINDNER: So, if she says, "I feel 4 you're harassing him," then we should ask 5 for a Ruling; correct? 6 JUDGE KATZ: Correct, but I don't 7 expect to have that happen all day long. 8 MR. LINDNER: Well, I don't either, 9 but I don't feel I was harassing when I 10 asked him his name, and don't feel I was 11 harassing when I asked how many people 12 worked at American Express. 13 JUDGE KATZ: And I don't think that 14 she claimed that that was harassing. 15 MS. PARK: Well, Your Honor, he 16 actually answered. Mr. Lin answered that 17 question. He said, "70,000 employees." 18 MR. LINDNER: That's because I asked 19 it a different way. But there were several 20 other ones and Your Honor we have a 21 stenographic record of this. So, I think 22 Ms. Park is not telling you the full truth 23 on these matters. So, if she says, Peter 24 you are harassing the deponent by asking a 0103 1 Lin 2 question about such and such a personal 3 area, that would be one thing, but when she 4 says it's not relevant, I don't want to 5 have to explain the relevancy to her, but 6 in this case I did explain the relevancy 7 and that is that when Qing said to Fisher 8 Jordan, "I don't think he can work here." 9 If you ask a person about an employer and 10 they said, "I don't think he can work 11 here," the question is what does "Here 12 mean?" Here might mean at this company. 13 Here might mean in this city or here might 14 mean in this country, because of passport 15 reasons. You know, not having a Green 16 Card. So, that is why I asked that 17 question. 18 But I don't if I have to explain my 19 whole thing to Ms. Park when he could just 20 say yes or no. 21 JUDGE KATZ: Look, I don't follow your 22 logic on some of this but -- 23 MR. LINDNER: I'm sorry. 24 MS. PARK: Judge -- 0104 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking for a 3 specific ruling on this and the specific 4 ruling is. If Ms. Park says something is 5 not relevant and I note her objection on 6 the record, can I compel the deponent to 7 answer? 8 JUDGE KATZ: If she doesn't think you 9 are harassing her client. 10 MR. LINDNER: Right. I understand if 11 she says, "You're harassing my client. I'm 12 directing him not to answer," then I will 13 object, and we will note that on the 14 record. But, I'm saying, if she doesn't 15 say that, "harassing," if she just says, 16 "It is not relevant question, I'm directing 17 you not to answer, Qing," and then he 18 refuses to answer, I'd like a ruling on 19 that, please. 20 MS. PARK: Judge, you don't need to 21 rule because I will not object. It is Mr. 22 Lindner's deposition. We are here for 23 seven hours. I will not object on the 24 ground of relevancy, unless I feel he has 0105 1 Lin 2 gone over the line and is now doing nothing 3 but attempting to harass my client. 4 MR. LINDNER: Can I get a ruling on 5 that, Your Honor? 6 JUDGE KATZ: Mr. Lindner -- 7 MR. LINDNER: Yes. 8 JUDGE KATZ: Your case is not the only 9 case this court has responsibility for, and 10 the way you are behaving you act like you 11 think that you have all of the Court's 12 attention be dedicated to your case. It 13 can't. You are a smart enough man to know 14 what needs to be done in order to get 15 discovery about the specific claim in this 16 case, which are very limited. They are 17 very limited. That has nothing to do with 18 the merit of the claim. All I'm saying is 19 the issues and contention are very narrow. 20 Essentially, whether he breached the 21 agreement by saying something negative 22 about your ability to be employed there and 23 what consequences that had -- 24 MR. LINDNER: Your Honor, can I say -- 0106 1 Lin 2 JUDGE KATZ: No. 3 MR. LINDNER: -- that is not what it 4 says on paragraph 13? 5 MS. PARK: Judge, we have just now 6 wasted forty minutes. 7 JUDGE KATZ: I think what we will do 8 is, if there are significant disagreements 9 over areas like this and you can't resolve 10 them, then I would suggest you just go on 11 and I will deal with them at the end of the 12 deposition not throughout the middle of it. 13 MR. LINDNER: I appreciate it and in 14 the meantime the deponent will be 15 instructed to answer, right, and you can 16 always strike it from the record; correct. 17 JUDGE KATZ: Unless Ms. Park feels 18 that you are harassing the witness. 19 MR. LINDNER: I understand fully. 20 MS. PARK: Thank you, Judge. 21 MR. LINDNER: Now, the other thing 22 that Ms. Park said is that we started at 23 10:45 because the videographer had to set 24 up. The answer was that Ms. Park received 0107 1 Lin 2 an e-mail from me about the video on 3 Friday, which was six days ago, and again 4 on Monday, and I told her that we were 5 going to start at 9:30 on 42nd Street, at 6 the place, and she objected last night at 7 6:45 p.m. from going there. So, she knew 8 this a week ago and they would have been 9 set up instantly. At 9:30 they would have 10 started on the dot. 11 She wrote me an e-mail, which can be 12 produced. I have a copy of it here. That 13 she said that if -- 14 JUDGE KATZ: I'm not ruling on this 15 matter. Go on with the deposition. 16 MR. LINDNER: I understand, Your 17 Honor, I wish to go on -- 18 MS. PARK: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. This 21 begins tape number 2 in the deposition of 22 Qing Lin. We are on the record at 12:47. 23 MR. LINDNER: This Peter Lindner, I'm 24 continuing -- This is Peter Lindner and I'm 0108 1 Lin 2 continuing the deposition of Qing Lin. 3 Q So, Qing, earlier I asked you a question 4 of what your full name was and Ms. Park -- 5 MS. PARK: Just ask him what his full 6 name. He can answer the question. 7 MR. LINDNER: Your objection is noted, 8 Ms. Park? 9 MS. PARK: I'm not objecting. Just 10 ask him. 11 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, your objection 12 is noted. Please do not interrupt again. 13 Q And Ms. Park directed you not to answer 14 and to refuse to answer. We just got a ruling 15 from the Judge and the Judge instructed that you 16 should be ordered to give your name. So, let me 17 ask you a question before I ask you the answer 18 (sic). Do you understand what it means when a 19 judge orders something? 20 MS. PARK: We stipulate that he does. 21 Move on, Mr. Lindner. 22 MR. LINDNER: Thank you, Ms. Park. 23 MS. PARK: Move on. 24 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, I will move 0109 1 Lin 2 on. I wish to get an answer from Mr. Lin. 3 Q Qing, do you understand what it means 4 when a judge orders something? 5 A Could you explain? 6 Q Sure. You have a judge who is in a 7 court and supposedly they have control of the 8 court. You understand what it means to have 9 control of an environment; correct? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 12 MR. LINDNER: Your objection is noted. 13 Q Can you answer? Do you understand what 14 it means to have control of an environment? 15 A I do not understand the technical legal 16 meaning of control of the court. 17 Q I wasn't using a legal term. I was 18 using environment in the sense -- For instance, if 19 American Express has certain standards of what you 20 wear or what you say or what things you can carry. 21 For instance: You cannot bring alcohol into the 22 work place, then they have control over that 23 office. Do you understand that? 24 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 0110 1 Lin 2 A In that form, I understand what you 3 said. 4 Q Very good. So, in a similar way a judge 5 has control over this environment, over the 6 courthouse. In other words, the judge can decide 7 what he allows and does not allow. Let me give an 8 example. I had a cell phone -- 9 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 10 MR. LINDNER: Yes. 11 Q I had a cell phone. I wasn't allowed to 12 bring it up. Ms. Park has a cell phone. She is 13 allowed to bring it up. The judge specifically 14 ordered that. Do you understand what it means 15 when a judge orders something? 16 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 17 answered. 18 Q Do you understand what it means? 19 A I understand in this example what it 20 means. 21 Q Can you tell me, in the best of your 22 ability, how you understand what a judge's order 23 is? 24 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He is 0111 1 Lin 2 not a lawyer, Mr. Lindner. 3 Q As a layman, I understand that you are 4 not a lawyer and I understand that I'm not a 5 lawyer, even though I play one in this trial, but 6 nonetheless do you understand what -- what is your 7 understanding of what a judge's order is. 8 A I don't know because I usually consult 9 with Ms. Park. 10 MS. PARK: Fine, just say, "I don't 11 know." 12 MR. LINDNER: If you don't know, 13 that's fine. 14 Q So, if somebody was to say, for instance 15 at American Express, that there is a rule that you 16 cannot bring liquor into the facility you would 17 understand what that means; correct? 18 A So, first, I'm not aware that American 19 Express has that rule. 20 Q That's true. They may not have that 21 rule. Let me ask you another thing. Suppose 22 somebody were drinking on the job, does American 23 Express have rules on that? 24 A I don't remember. 0112 1 Lin 2 Q So, for instance, can you bring in some 3 liquor and when you go down for your lunch bring 4 it up to your desk and drink it, like a rum and 5 coke, or some drink like that? Orange juice and 6 vodka, and do your work. Is that acceptable 7 American Express policy? 8 A I'm not aware of American Express policy 9 but I have not seen people do that. 10 Q Alright. You are a manager of many 11 people. So, do you feel that there is a document 12 that tells whether you can or cannot, in fact, 13 consume liquor on the premises while you are 14 working? 15 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 16 answer. You can answer. 17 A So, I have seen incidents, that happens. 18 For example, there could be receptions, company 19 host inside the building. Alcohol would be 20 served. 21 Q Sure. 22 A I have seen that. 23 Q Right. 24 A So, that's why I cannot especially say 0113 1 Lin 2 which is rule. 3 Q And, actually, I have been to some of 4 those but typically they are social type things as 5 opposed to business meetings. Would you 6 characterize it as such? 7 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 8 Q How would you characterize the 9 difference when they serve and when they don't 10 serve? 11 MS. PARK: Okay to form. 12 MR. LINDNER: Noted. Please answer. 13 A It is business related meeting. 14 Q Okay. Do you think that this -- Do you 15 know of any document at American Express that 16 would actually state what the policy is or not? 17 A Regarding to what? 18 Q Alcoholic beverages? 19 A I do not know. 20 Q Do you think there would be anything 21 that would refresh your memory? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 23 didn't say he can't remember. He said he 24 doesn't know. 0114 1 Lin 2 Q If you had a question on that, who would 3 you go to? 4 A I would go to Human Resources. 5 Q And what would Human Resources probably 6 do? 7 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 8 can't testify to what someone in HR would 9 do. 10 Q Have you ever spoken to HR before? 11 A In general? 12 Q Yes. 13 A In my 19 years or 18 years? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do people or have you ever asked a 17 specific question of HR? 18 A Have I ever asked a question to HR? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Have they ever gotten back to you with 22 an answer? 23 A Yes. 24 Q When they give you an answer do they 0115 1 Lin 2 couch it in terms of specific documents? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 Q Do they ever say, "Here is a document 5 that answers your question." 6 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 7 A They would typically say by policy or by 8 something and that's what is acceptable or not 9 acceptable. I do not know the document handed to 10 me. 11 Q It would be a document; correct? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Are there documents at HR? 15 A They are documents. 16 Q They have documents, right. For 17 instance, in America you typically walk on the 18 right side of the sidewalk. There is no law about 19 walking on the right side of the sidewalk. You 20 could walk on the left side. I don't think, if 21 you want to find a document, there would be. 22 Do you think there is a document at 23 American Express -- Do you have any opinion 24 whether there is a document or whether HR would 0116 1 Lin 2 know if there is a document about drinking at 3 work? 4 MR. LINDNER: Objection to form. 5 Asked and answered. 6 A I do not know whether document exists or 7 not. HR may know but I do not know such document 8 exists. 9 Q Let's assume for a moment that somebody 10 who is in control of a group, a senior 11 vice-president or president, manager or whatever 12 said, "I'm not going to allow such and such to 13 happen." Do you understand -- Have you been in 14 such experiences in your time at American Express 15 where a manager says, "I don't want such and such 16 to happen." 17 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 18 A So, you are asking a very general 19 question. I don't know how to answer. Be 20 specific. 21 Q Has a manager ever said something that 22 he will not allow in a group which he had the 23 authority to either allow or not allow? 24 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 0117 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: Noted. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Can you give an example? 5 A If you are stealing on company property 6 that's not allowed. 7 Q Correct. That's a good example. In 8 some cases stealing a computer might be considered 9 a bad thing and in some cases stealing a pencil 10 might be considered a bad thing. At American 11 Express is stealing a pencil considered a bad 12 thing? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 14 A I don't know. 15 Q Have you ever taken a pencil from 16 American Express from work to home? 17 A A pencil? 18 Q A pencil. 19 A Yes. 20 Q If somebody called you to their office 21 and said, "We are firing you for stealing company 22 property, namely a pencil," what would your 23 reaction be? 24 A So, you are asking me my judgment -- 0118 1 Lin 2 Q Yes. 3 A -- whether taking a pencil home from 4 work constitute to stealing company property or 5 not? 6 Q Correct. 7 A Is that your question? 8 Q Correct. 9 A It is a hypothetical question. You are 10 asking my judgment now? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I just want to understand your question. 13 Q You understand it perfectly. 14 A In that particular case, I would not in 15 general rule say this person is stealing company 16 property. 17 Q If you were to say why, what reason 18 would you give for that? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 A That is my judgment. 21 Q Could a manager then say, "Okay, let 22 bygones be bygones, but from this point forward I 23 don't want you ever to take a pencil home again." 24 Can you imagine that happening? 0119 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 A Again, that is a very hypothetical 4 question. 5 Q Yes, it is a hypothetical question. 6 A First, I do not think a manager would 7 say that. It's a different matter if someone 8 order a large case of pencils, say big case of 9 pencils and take it home, then that would be 10 stealing company property. 11 Q Right. Or a computer perhaps; right? I 12 mean there are times when you take a computer home 13 but it's the exact opposite of stealing. You're 14 stealing your personal time to help out American 15 Express by doing work at home. So, sometimes 16 stealing would be the completely wrong word. But 17 anyhow, a manager could say -- For instance, can 18 you imagine a manager saying, "Do not take a 19 computer home with you?" Have managers ever said 20 that to anybody? 21 MS. PARK: Which question are you 22 asking him. You asked five questions in -- 23 MR. LINDNER: Let me clarify, Ms. 24 Park. 0120 1 Lin 2 Q Can you imagine a manager saying to a 3 person, "Do not take your laptop home with you?" 4 A Can I imagine? 5 Q Yes. 6 A It depends on the case. 7 Q So, you can imagine it? You just can 8 imagine cases where they can and you can also 9 imagine cases where they cannot; is that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. So, can you give me an example 12 where a manager would say, "Do not take a laptop 13 home," and he would be totally right on that? 14 A You are asking me a judgment without 15 substance of situation. I cannot answer that 16 question. 17 Q Let me clarify it. American Express has 18 a lot of customer information; is that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Some of that information is 21 confidential; correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Some of that information is stored on 24 laptops; correct? 0121 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q If there were an incident of personal 4 accounts being found out by what are called 5 hackers, that would be upsetting to American 6 Express; would that be correct? 7 A You mean a data compromise? 8 Q Correct. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Yes. So, if an incident like that 11 happened and a manager said, "For a period of time 12 I'm saying do not take a laptop home," that would 13 make sense, correct or not? 14 A I do not know because they are data 15 security procedures of American Express. I do 16 know -- I do not know enough of hypothetical 17 situations to form a judgment to say whether you 18 should or should not take that laptop home. 19 Q Right. But if a manager made a decision 20 that he felt that the situation called for no 21 laptops being taken home -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- that would be within his province of 24 making a decision; correct? 0122 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q And suppose, even if you were told that, 4 you took a laptop home would that be a problem? 5 A Yes. 6 Q I agree with you. So, you wonder where 7 I'm going with this and I will tell you. The 8 judge just now said that previously Ms. Park told 9 you not to answer a question, and she in fact 10 instructed you to do that and the judge, as I 11 understand him, ordered you to answer. So, that 12 means that if you refuse to answer you're 13 disobeying a direct order of the judge. 14 MS. PARK: That's your 15 characterization. 16 Q So, let me ask you now, in light of how 17 I understood the judge to say that you are 18 directed to answer, can you give me your full 19 name? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What is it? 22 A Qing Lin. I have answered that before 23 but I'll repeat. 24 Q I appreciate it. That's what I'm asking 0123 1 Lin 2 you. So, on your Birth Certificate it would also 3 say, Qing Lin; correct? 4 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 5 Q Do you have a Birth Certificate? 6 A No. 7 Q Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Do you 8 have any documents that has your name as it was 9 from the earliest that it's recorded? Typically 10 in America, not everybody, but most people have a 11 Birth Certificate to prove for voting or various 12 things, to prove that they can drink for instance. 13 A trivial example. But for very important things. 14 Like there was a question about where Barrack 15 Obama was born or where Senator John McCain was 16 born and if their Birth Certificate said some 17 other country then they would not be eligible -- 18 A Peter, I understand it. 19 Q Okay. 20 MS. PARK: What's your question? 21 What's your question? What's your 22 question? 23 THE WITNESS: I was going to ask that. 24 Q Please answer, Qing. 0124 1 Lin 2 A What's your question? So, you ask me 3 what's my name, I just stated. 4 Q Did you ever have a different, slightly 5 different, name? 6 A No. 7 Q I say that because I had a roommate at 8 college who had a name Ben Fung, but his real name 9 was Fung Ben Lee, and the Immigration Service 10 changed it and I'm asking you if you had a name 11 prior to this that was slightly different? 12 A No. But I will state one fact. 13 Q Thank you. 14 A In U.S. we put family name after the 15 given name. In China we put family name before 16 given name. 17 Q Okay. 18 A So, that will be the only difference. 19 You will note in China people will typically call 20 me Lin Qing. In U.S., because of the law, because 21 we are required to family name last, so I'm Qing 22 Lin. 23 Q Okay, so Qing is your first name? 24 A Yes. 0125 1 Lin 2 Q Thank you and I appreciate that you went 3 and --That's good. 4 A Does that answer your question? 5 Q Yes, it did. You know, if we had that 6 before we would have been saved a lot of time and 7 trouble. So, let us continue. We had talked a 8 little bit about that you had e-mail, right before 9 the break, on your Blackberry; and that's correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q That you have sent or received e-mails 12 to or from Fisher Jordan on that Blackberry; 13 correct? 14 A I do not remember. 15 Q I think, if I can characterize your 16 answer as active and passive, you were sort of 17 implying that your Blackberry passively gets all 18 your e-mail and you don't know whether you sent 19 one directly to Fisher Jordan, but the Blackberry 20 might contain on it a Fisher Jordan e-mail by the 21 virtue of how it worked. Is that correct? 22 A The Blackberry is linked and replicated 23 in the way the company's e-mail system. 24 Q Okay. 0126 1 Lin 2 A And whatever is on the company's e-mail 3 system the Blackberry will get it. 4 Q So, now you tell me that you can access 5 a lot of your e-mail, maybe all of your e-mail, 6 from your Blackberry. Is that true? 7 A No. All the company e-mail on the 8 company e-mail system. 9 Q And that e-mail system, I think you said 10 was Lotus notes; is that correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do they have a retention policy for 13 e-mails at American Express? 14 A I think so. 15 Q Can you describe that policy? 16 A I do not know. 17 Q If you were -- You are a pretty high up 18 manager at American Express. When I worked there 19 there were a lot of statements about what a 20 retention policy would be. How long you could 21 keep your information whether it is germaine. Are 22 you aware of any such policies or not? 23 A I'm aware of such policy exist but I am 24 not familiar with that policy. 0127 1 Lin 2 Q That's okay. So, now, let me ask you 3 further. Are you familiar with any policy of 4 American Express on retention as regards this 5 case? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Can you tell me what that policy is? 8 A There would be a specific order of hold 9 any document and that was supposed to be. 10 Q By retain, can you describe a little bit 11 more what that means? 12 A Means I cannot delete or change those 13 information. 14 Q Do you understand the reason for that? 15 A I think so. 16 Q Can you tell me what you think the 17 reason is for that? 18 A Because we want to maintain the 19 evidence. 20 MR. LINDNER: Very good. That is how 21 I interpreted it too, by the way. I'm not 22 a lawyer but that's how I interpreted it. 23 Q So, Fisher Jordan spoke with you in 24 2005? Is that correct or not? 0128 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 Q Did you speak to Fisher Jordan ever in 4 your life? 5 A Fisher Jordan is the name of company. 6 Q Correct. 7 A So, your question is: Did I speak with 8 some person in Fisher Jordan? Is that your 9 question? 10 Q That is exactly it? 11 A Yes. Cause I cannot speak to a company. 12 Q Well, if somebody said, I called 13 American Express," and they told me I exceeded my 14 credit limit or I'm thirty days overdue -- 15 A Okay, I just wanted to understand the 16 question. 17 Q People do say that; right? People say, 18 "I called Amex" -- 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 Q -- and they said, "I'm overdue," would 21 that be a phrase that you would hear in American 22 Express for instance? 23 A Yes. I just wanted to be clear because 24 -- 0129 1 Lin 2 Q I understand. Fisher Jordan could be 3 two people but it's not. It's the name of a 4 company. Alright, so you have spoken to people in 5 Fisher Jordan. Do you remember speaking to them 6 in 2005? 7 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 8 A Yes. Sometime in the 2005, yes. 9 Q So, sometime in 2005 you spoke to people 10 at Fisher Jordan? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did you speak to them socially or did 13 you speak to them on a work related matter? 14 A On the a work related matter. 15 Q Can you describe approximately when in 16 2005? 17 A Some time early 2005. I do not remember 18 exact time. 19 Q You don't have to remember the exact 20 date but early 2005 means, what? The first -- 21 A I don't know. 22 Q -- three months -- six months of the 23 year? 24 A I would say, maybe, second quarter of 0130 1 Lin 2 the year. 3 Q Second quarter of the year, okay. 4 Second quarter begins on what date? 5 A You are asking my knowledge of when the 6 second quarter starts? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Second quarter started April 1st. 9 Q Right. So, if it -- 10 A Maybe before that. 11 Q -- occurred March 15th or April 15th, 12 it's just a range? 13 A I don't remember specific date you are 14 asking me. 15 MR. LINDNER: That's fine. So, think 16 we are going to move onto the line of 17 questioning. We finished most of the intro 18 questions and so now we are going to talk a 19 little bit about Fisher Jordan; okay? 20 Q Now, how did you first know or get to 21 meet anyone at Fisher Jordan? 22 A One person I know in Fisher Jordan is 23 Boaz Salik. 24 MR. LINDNER: B-o-a-z, new word 0131 1 Lin 2 S-a-l-i-k, and I note for the record that 3 he has a brother named Omer Salik, O-m-e-r 4 Salik, and he is the lawyer for Fisher 5 Jordan, and he has been admitted to this 6 case pro hac bice, which is pro (p-r-o) hac 7 (h-a-c) bice (b-i-c-e). So, sometimes when 8 we said Salik, it will be confusing but if 9 we say Boaz and Omer it will be less 10 confusion. 11 Q Boaz is the one you are familiar with; 12 correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And do you remember how you first met 15 him? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Can you tell me about that? 18 A Boaz was a consultant in Mitchell 19 Madison Group, which is a management consulting 20 firm. 21 Q What was the name of the group? 22 A Mitchel Madison. 23 Q Mitchel Madison? 24 A Yes. I don't remember how to spell that 0132 1 Lin 2 name, so. 3 MR. LINDNER: I think it is 4 M-i-t-c-h-e-l-l new word Madison, like 5 Madison Avenue, (M-a-d-i-s-o-n). 6 A He was engaged. He worked with American 7 Express on a marketing project. I was partially 8 involved in that project. That's how I know Boaz 9 Salik. 10 Q Was he part of Mitchell Madison or was 11 he Fisher Jordan working for Mitchell Madison 12 working for American Express? 13 A My recollection is he was part of 14 Mitchell Madison. 15 Q Okay. And how long did you know him in 16 the Mitchell Madison capacity as opposed to the 17 Fisher Jordan capacity? 18 A So, I do not quite understand the 19 question, "How long?" 20 Q Does Boaz still work for Mitchell 21 Madison? 22 A No. 23 Q So, at some point he transitioned from 24 Mitchell Madison to Fisher Jordan. Do you happen 0133 1 Lin 2 to remember approximately when that was? 3 A No, I do not remember. 4 MR. LINDNER: I'm a little bit thrown 5 off here. I'm sorry, I'm going to go back 6 to an area that I did before. My notes are 7 not the best. I'm going to go back to the 8 risk management. 9 Q I had asked at one point that you 10 describe what risk management is to a series of 11 different people and you, in a humorous way -- The 12 reason I'm asking you that question is because 13 sometimes we know words, and it means we use them 14 all the time, like the word finance. You use the 15 word finance all the time. It means you have no 16 trouble understanding it. When you talk to 17 certain people and you say, "I'm in finance," and 18 they won't have a clue as to what you do. 19 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 20 MR. LINDNER: Yes, there is. 21 Q Have you ever met somebody who, as an 22 adult, did not know what finance meant? 23 MS. PARK: Objection form. 24 A I do not remember I have met anyone who 0134 1 Lin 2 do not know what finance is. 3 Q That's good. Have you ever met an 4 adult, an average adult, who did not understand 5 what risk management was? 6 A I do not remember. I might have. 7 Q Does risk management only apply to 8 credit card companies? 9 A No. 10 Q What other field does it apply to? 11 A There are many fields risk management 12 could be applied to. 13 Q Can you give a few different examples, 14 aside from the field of finance? 15 A Aside from the field of finance? 16 Q Yes? 17 MS. PARK: Objection. 18 A I don't understand the question. 19 Q You are expert on risk management and 20 you are an expert in financial risk management; is 21 that correct? 22 A I'm an expert on credit risk management 23 for a credit card company. 24 Q Could you have, let's say, risk 0135 1 Lin 2 management in another field totally unrelated to 3 credit cards? Let's say risk management in terms 4 of explosives? Risk management in terms of data 5 security? 6 A Operation risk, is that what you're 7 talking about? 8 Q Yes, for instance. 9 A Yes. 10 Q It would have nothing to do with 11 finance? 12 A Yes. So the question is: Am I aware 13 of? 14 Q Yes, are you aware? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So, if somebody said -- If you said to 17 somebody you are in risk management, chances are 18 they wouldn't understand it that well that they 19 would know exactly what you do. You would have to 20 explain it to them. So, that's what I'm asking 21 you to do. Can you explain, to an average person, 22 without using terms like credit operations or 23 function, can you do it in simple terms what risk 24 management is? 0136 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 Q Can you explain that? 4 A So, you are asking hypothetical question 5 on -- The first question you've been asking to me 6 is, what is risk management? 7 Q Correct, can you answer that? I think 8 you already answered it and you gave a pretty 9 technical answer and I'm not asking you to repeat 10 that answer. I'm asking can you give a variation 11 on that answer that uses simpler words? 12 A So, without a context, I do not know how 13 to answer your question. You have to give me more 14 specifics of the situation and maybe I could 15 answer in that situation. 16 Q I appreciate your candor. Yes, I can 17 give more specifics -- You go to a cocktail party 18 and you meet some colleagues and one of the 19 colleagues, who has a spouse, who was an English 20 Major at a university, a pretty good university, 21 and that spouse asks you, "What do you do," and 22 you said, "I'm in risk management," and that 23 spouse says, "I'm not sure. I know what risk 24 means. I know what management means. I know you 0137 1 Lin 2 are managing some sort of risk. Can you explain 3 it?" And that's what I'm asking you. Can you 4 explain in that situation what risk management is? 5 A Could you clarify the situation? Is 6 that spouse familiar with American Express -- 7 Q Not at all. But they are -- 8 A You're talking about -- 9 Q They would be familiar about having a 10 credit card. You know, they know American 11 Express, Mastercard, Visa. They don't know what 12 the difference is. They don't know the difference 13 between a credit card or a debit card. That's all 14 beyond them. But they do read and write English 15 really well. They are intelligent people. I mean 16 they could probably figure it out. But if you had 17 to explain what risk management is, can you do so 18 now? 19 A To someone who is familiar with American 20 Express business? 21 Q No, to somebody who just knows credit 22 cards. They know credit cards in that even a ten 23 year old knows that you use a credit card, to buy 24 things. But can you explain what risk management 0138 1 Lin 2 is? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Please do so. 5 A Risk management to ensure that we take 6 the right level of the risk of incomes of people 7 not paying us back and it is there to maintain 8 profitability. 9 Q How do you do that? 10 A There are many things. We manage 11 incomes of credit issuing process. 12 Q And by credit issuing process, do you 13 mean deciding whether to give a person a credit 14 card at all? 15 A Yes, so we decide who to give a credit 16 card. We decide what is the credit line on the 17 credit card. 18 Q And credit line would mean what? 19 A Credit limits. You are familiar with 20 credit limit on a credit card? 21 Q I'm familiar with all of it but I'm just 22 trying to do it -- 23 A As a layman -- 24 Q Yes, I guess when you say, "You," you 0139 1 Lin 2 meant the hypothetical spouse at the party," I'm 3 sorry. I lost it. 4 MS. PARK: I just want to clarify. 5 The court reporter cannot transcribe both 6 of you speaking at the same time. So, Mr. 7 Lin, please, you know, don't talk when Mr. 8 Lindner is talking, and visa versa, so the 9 record is clear. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay, I appreciate that. 11 MR. LINDNER: And I appreciate that 12 too. Okay, so, go ahead, Qing. 13 A So, risk management involve deciding 14 what is the credit line on the credit card. Risk 15 management involve when do we start calling 16 customer to remind them their bill is due. Risk 17 management involve when do we call customer to 18 collect the past payments. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Risk management also involve when do we 21 start serious collection effort, including legal 22 actions to collect the balance. 23 Q Well, thank you. Actually, you went 24 further than I thought and I'm glad you did 0140 1 Lin 2 because -- Actually, I worked in collections in 3 Richard Cohen and I forgot that part. Let's talk 4 a little bit about collections. When they do 5 collections, how do they decide whom to go after 6 in collections? 7 A Every past due customer we attempt to 8 collect. 9 Q Everyone? 10 A Everyone. 11 Q Are there some that you don't attempt to 12 collect? You are implying that -- There are none 13 that you don't bother with? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 15 A There are different level of past due. 16 So, when people reach certain level past due, we 17 always attempt to collect. 18 Q Have you ever heard of the term 19 "probability tree?" 20 A I have heard probability. I have heard 21 tree. I do not know what you mean probability 22 tree. 23 Q How do you interpret the phrase to mean? 24 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 0141 1 Lin 2 A Different events with certain 3 probability of happening and then you draw a tree 4 diagraph to highlight what is a possibility and 5 what is a probability. 6 Q And your answer seems to imply that you 7 know quite a bit about probability trees; correct? 8 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 9 Q Do you know a lot about probability 10 trees? 11 MS. PARK: Objection, asked and 12 answered. 13 MR. LINDNER: Objection noted. Please 14 answer. 15 A Yes. I know what do you mean 16 probability trees. 17 Q Pardon? 18 A I know what do you mean probability 19 trees. 20 Q And have you had experience with 21 probability trees? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Is it at all related to risk management? 24 A Yes. 0142 1 Lin 2 Q Is it centrally related to risk 3 management? 4 A Not necessarily. 5 Q Okay. You see I would have thought the 6 whole point of risk management is building a 7 probability tree but you would say that's an 8 incorrect characterization? 9 A Probability tree could be a tool. Could 10 be a representation of risk management but that is 11 not an entire risk management. 12 Q Is it a large part of risk management? 13 A It's a tool. 14 Q What are the other tools? 15 A There are many other tools. 16 Q Can you name some of the other tools? 17 A Optimization, statistics. 18 Q Are there other tools beyond that? I'm 19 sure there are but, I mean, can you think of any 20 offhand? 21 A I can think many. I just gave you two 22 examples. 23 Q Would probability trees be related to 24 statistics? 0143 1 Lin 2 A Could be. 3 Q Are they? 4 A I do not know in what context? What do 5 you mean relate? 6 Q You have bankruptcy models at American 7 Express; is that correct? 8 A We might have. I don't remember 9 specifically. 10 Q Do you have any models at American 11 Express? 12 A Could you clarify model? 13 Q Do you have any mathematical models for 14 the credit card modeling? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Can you tell us what a mathematical 17 model for credit card modeling is? 18 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park? 19 MS. PARK: Go ahead and answer. 20 MR. LINDNER: Without giving away -- 21 A You know, so -- 22 MR. LINDNER: Without -- 23 MS. PARK: The two of you cannot be 24 speaking at the same time. 0144 1 Lin 2 Q I'm sorry. Let me clarify this. There 3 is certain information that Mastercard would love 4 to get from American Express about their 5 probability models. I want you to think of what 6 that information is and do not say it. In other 7 words, if you want to say, "We use a such and such 8 tree," whatever it is, I do not want you to say 9 it. That is not what I'm after here. I'm asking 10 you to just explain how you use these tools, okay? 11 Without giving the proprietary information. Does 12 that make sense, Qing? 13 A Based on a situation, if you ask me a 14 specific question, I would decide whether I could 15 answer or not. So, but if you asking me to make a 16 general statement and I just have to say we use 17 statistic models, we use optimization models, we 18 use economic models, and we could use other 19 mathematical models which is a long list. I don't 20 on top of my hat -- 21 Q No, it's -- 22 MS. PARK: Don't talk over each other, 23 please. 24 Q That's pretty good. Alright. So, when 0145 1 Lin 2 you looked at a group of people -- When I used to 3 work there it would be that there would be a 4 probability tree that you would assign the 5 probability for each class of people having a 6 default, and what would happen if they would 7 default, and what the dollar affect would be, and 8 you would sum that up over all the people to get a 9 total dollar value of what the loss or gain would 10 be on a credit card portfolio. Is that an 11 accurate representation of what risk management is 12 about? 13 A You have a description of something you 14 are familiar with risk management and I have to 15 acknowledge that but I cannot say that is entire 16 risk management. 17 Q I know. You said economics for 18 instance, and I didn't even include that, and 19 that's a big factor. When you were working at 20 American Express in 1990, did they have economic 21 models? Would that be proprietary information? 22 A I believe so. 23 MR. LINDNER: Then I withdraw the 24 question. 0146 1 Lin 2 Q Again. I'm not trying to wheedle out 3 information from you. I just want a general 4 thing. As best I know, back then American Express 5 did not have economic models which were time 6 series models, but they might have had in the mean 7 time. So, that is what I was trying to find out 8 the answer. 9 A I cannot comment on that. 10 MR. LINDNER: You do not have to 11 comment on that. Thank you. I didn't 12 realize it was proprietary. 13 Q Now, there was a question I asked you 14 before. I just notice that I didn't get the 15 answer. I have written down in my notes and maybe 16 you answered it later. What were the number of 17 people employed at American Express? 18 MS. PARK: Asked and answered. He 19 said 70,000 approximately. 20 Q How many people is Ken Chenault in 21 charge of? 22 MS. PARK: We stipulate that Mr. 23 Chenault is in charge, as chairman of 24 American Express, is ultimately -- strike 0147 1 Lin 2 that. 3 MR. LINDNER: Can we have Qing answer, 4 please, instead of you stipulating? 5 A Can I ask a clarifying question? 6 Q Yes? 7 A What do you mean, "In charge of?" 8 Q In other words, in his reporting 9 structure. So, if he had people reporting to him, 10 and those people are people reporting to them, 11 that if you add all those people up, and that is 12 in effect like a tree, right? Where he is at the 13 top and all the little branches are different 14 managers and the leaves would be the people. I'm 15 saying, how many total people are there in the 16 organization that Ken Chenault has reporting to 17 him directly or indirectly, what number would that 18 be? 19 A It is the same answer because -- Same 20 question you ask me how many employees? 21 Q Is he is in charge of all the employees? 22 A Is that your question? 23 Q I'm asking you, yes. 24 A Is he in charge of all the employees of 0148 1 Lin 2 American Express? 3 Q Yes. 4 A I don't think so. 5 Q Okay, thank you. That's good. That's 6 what I was asking you before. 7 Let's go back to the trees again. You 8 can also use risk management in applications other 9 than credit cards; right? You can use them, for 10 instance, in legal circumstances; correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q For instance, you could say the 13 probability of winning a case and the probability 14 of losing a case and if you -- Is that correct? 15 A So, you are asking me a hypothetical 16 question? 17 Q Yes. 18 A I have not dealt with that problem, so. 19 Q Can you consider it? If somebody were 20 to say, can you do a probability tree for a trial 21 that can win or can lose, would that be something 22 that, even if you have never seen it before in 23 your life, that you might be able to deal with 24 that? 0149 1 Lin 2 A In general? 3 Q Yes. 4 A I think so but I have to know the 5 specific to see whether I can do it or not. 6 Q Well, for instance, I would say -- If I 7 say there is a new car out, can you drive it? And 8 you'd say, well, I've never seen that car. I 9 don't know what sort of car it is. But being that 10 you have a driver's license and you have driven 11 for ten or twenty years, you might say, chances 12 are, in most cases, I can drive the car. If it is 13 an average car. So, I'm asking, if this is an 14 average legal case and somebody told you, said, 15 can you use risk management to analyze a legal 16 case? What would your answer be? 17 A I do not know. 18 Q Would you be able to bring your talents 19 to bear upon that? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 21 A The question is, from you, Peter, to me. 22 Asking me whether I can do it, or the question is, 23 you as the client, are you asking someone seeking 24 help, to analyze the risk of legal case? So I do 0150 1 Lin 2 not know what context -- 3 Q If somebody said there is a legal case 4 how would I go about doing a risk management 5 analysis? 6 A My answer would be, I do not know. I 7 need to know more context to see whether I can 8 apply my knowledge and exp,e,rience. 9 Q Can you give an example of what 10 questions you would ask? 11 A No, I do not know. Someone would have 12 to bring the situation to me. Given such a 13 general question, I do not know how to proceed 14 from here, Peter. 15 Q So, let me try to help you. Let's look 16 at this case. This case is called Peter Lindner 17 versus American Express and Qing Lin, O6 CV (sic). 18 3834 in the Southern District of New York. And 19 somebody would say, you know, one side can win or 20 the other side could win and when they win -- When 21 one side wins or the other side wins there would 22 be a certain dollar value and there is a certain 23 probability to one side winning or the other side 24 winning. First of all, can you characterize a 0151 1 Lin 2 legal case like that? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park. 5 MR. LINDNER: To the extent that you 6 can understand. 7 THE WITNESS: No, because the question 8 is specific to this case. 9 MS. PARK: Are you asking him a 10 specific -- 11 MR. LINDNER: I'm giving an example. 12 MS. PARK: Hang on. Mr. Lindner, are 13 you asking him to opine about the 14 probability in this litigation? 15 MR. LINDNER: Yes. 16 MS. PARK: No, I'm going to direct him 17 not to answer. 18 MR. LINDNER: And can you give the 19 reason? 20 MS. PARK: It's inappropriate. It's 21 harassing my client. You're asking him to 22 opine, as to as what, whether he thinks you 23 are going to win or not? That is 24 inappropriate. 0152 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking whether he 3 can apply that analysis to this situation. 4 MS. PARK: Apply what analysis? 5 MR. LINDNER: Risk management to a 6 legal situation and he wanted it specific. 7 Q So, could you apply it, this specific 8 case of Lindner versus American Express, Qing Lin, 9 probably winning, probably losing, probably -- and 10 what the pay offs are? 11 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park? 12 MS. PARK: Just answer, yes or no. 13 Could you apply whatever expertise you have 14 in risk management and give some 15 probability in this particular case? 16 A So, let me clarify question. Could I or 17 would I? 18 MS. PARK: Could you? 19 THE WITNESS: If I have the skill to 20 analyze this? 21 MS. PARK: Yes. 22 A Yes, I do have a skill to analyze it. 23 But would I do that? I would have to seek legal 24 advice -- 0153 1 Lin 2 Q You have to what? 3 A Seek legal advice because this case is 4 related to me. So, -- 5 Q You would seek legal advice on what 6 question? 7 A On whether I should analyze use of risk 8 management and analyze in front of you. 9 Q In front of me? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Would you have to seek permission to 12 analyze it on your own? 13 A I do not know. I have not thought of 14 it. 15 Q I'm asking you to think of it now. 16 Suppose you wanted to, in your head, think about 17 it as a risk management case, would you have the 18 skills to do that? 19 A I don't know. I have a basic analytical 20 skill but I do not know if I possess all the 21 skills and knowledge to analyze this case. 22 Q I'm not talking about all the skills. I 23 mean, it's like asking about a race car. You 24 know, you might not be able to race in the Indy 0154 1 Lin 2 500, but if you had to go to the corner store to 3 pick up a newspaper and a quart of milk you'd have 4 the skills to the drive a car. 5 So, I'm asking, do you have the skills 6 to evaluate the risk management of this case? 7 A I do not know. 8 Q Okay. Let me ask a different question. 9 Have you ever thought about the probability of 10 winning and losing this case? 11 A No. I have not thought of that. 12 Q Have you ever thought about the 13 consequences of you winning or losing this case? 14 A Consequences? No, I have not thought of 15 it. 16 Q You have not thought about it? 17 MS. PARK: You have to keep your voice 18 up, Mr. Lin. 19 A I have not thought of it. 20 Q Okay, let me ask you another question. 21 If you had a probability tree and they had the 22 probability of different outcomes, which would be 23 the chances of winning or losing, and then the pay 24 out? How much you would get if you win, how much 0155 1 Lin 2 you would get if you lose, could be positive, 3 could be negative, would that be what risk 4 management is? 5 A And are you still talking about this 6 case? 7 Q Yes. 8 A So, if I understand your question, what 9 would be the payout? I have not thought of it. I 10 cannot answer this question. You are asking me to 11 model in front of you what is the outcome come of 12 this case? 13 Q I'm asking if you can do that. I'm not 14 asking you to model right now. I'm asking can it 15 be done? Can it be done by anyone? 16 MS. PARK: That wasn't your question. 17 Now you are asking him can anyone? 18 MR. LINDNER: That's right. I'm 19 clarifying it. 20 Q First, can it done by anyone? Does 21 there exist a person, as best you know in the 22 United States, who can estimate risk management 23 for a trial? 24 A I don't know. 0156 1 Lin 2 Q Could you do that, if you wanted to? 3 MS. PARK: Objection, asked and 4 answered. 5 A I do not know because I'm not a lawyer. 6 So, I do not know enough of the legal proceeding. 7 Q Well, you make many estimates in 8 American Express on people paying or not paying; 9 correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And quite often you don't know their 12 individual circumstances; correct? 13 A No. 14 Q No, you don't know? 15 A I do not know. 16 Q In fact, you can get incredibly detailed 17 information about a person and you wouldn't even 18 know their name; is that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Is that typical? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 Q Is it typical to get incredibly detailed 23 information about people and not even know their 24 name? 0157 1 Lin 2 A I do not understand this question. Are 3 you asking a privacy question or American Express 4 practice of getting information. So, I do not 5 know your question. 6 Q Does your field of risk management get 7 very detailed information without knowing the 8 basics, such as a person's name? 9 A First, let me repeat the question to see 10 if I got it. 11 Q Sure. 12 A Does risk management get personal 13 information without knowing person's name? 14 Q Yes. 15 A The answer is, depends. So, 16 technically, I think you are asking me, based on 17 your knowledge of a field of American Express. In 18 some cases American Express allowed to get 19 personal information with person's consent. 20 Personal information, meaning credit bureau 21 information, with people's consent and then make 22 credit decision based on that. 23 Q Would you have their name? 24 A Yes. 0158 1 Lin 2 Q All the time? 3 A So, let me explain. Not all the time. 4 In some cases. I think you are referring to 5 pre-approval process, which we're prospecting 6 people who do not have relationship with American 7 Express. In that case we buy data records without 8 person's name and we rely on third-party vendors 9 to conduct the direct mail. In that case -- 10 Q She understood it, but I didn't. Can 11 you say that word again? The what? 12 A Direct mail. 13 MR. LINDNER: Direct mail. Yes, I'm 14 sorry. It's embarrassing for me. I'm 15 sorry. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. It's my 17 voice. 18 MR. LINDNER: Yeah, yeah. If you want 19 a drink of water. You can take a break. 20 THE WITNESS: I'm fine. 21 A So, if you are asking that question, it 22 depends. 23 Q And that's what I was asking. Is that 24 you can get Credit Bureau Reports on ten or twenty 0159 1 Lin 2 million people but you will not have their name, 3 you will just have how many credit cards, what 4 their credit line is, what their three digit Zip 5 code -- A whole bunch of information on that? 6 A I will not call it report reports. I 7 will call it data. 8 Q Data? 9 A Prospect data. 10 Q Prospect data? 11 A Credit reports are associated to a 12 specific person. 13 Q And what I was talking about would be 14 handled by a third-party vendor; right? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. LINDNER: I hope to wind this up 17 in a few minutes so we can take a break. 18 Q Do you recall what this case is about? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 A What case? 21 Q We are in the case Lindner versus 22 American Express and Qing Lin. Do you know what 23 the case is about? 24 A Roughly, yes. 0160 1 Lin 2 Q Can you tell me what it is? 3 A The case is about, you complained about 4 me breaching an agreement between you and American 5 Express by giving a bad reference of you. 6 MR. LINDNER: So, I'd like to enter 7 this into evidence, and we will use one of 8 my tags but then it will be officially 9 entered by the court reporter. So, let me 10 put a tag on it and then I will give you a 11 copy. Marian, can you put this into the 12 record. 13 (Whereupon Plaintiff's 14 Exhibit 1 was received and 15 marked for identification, 16 as of this date.) 17 MR. LINDNER: Here is a spare copy. 18 MS. PARK: No, I need a copy, Mr. 19 Lindner. 20 MR. LINDNER: Here is a spare copy. 21 You can take a look at the official copy. 22 Wait, one of these is mine, right? Thank 23 you. And this is a spare copy for you. 24 MS. PARK: No. Mr. Lindner, you are 0161 1 Lin 2 supposed to give the witness the originally 3 marked document. You're supposed to give 4 me a copy, so I know what the witness is 5 looking at, and you are supposed to be 6 referring to your own copy. 7 MR. LINDNER: So, how many copies are 8 there total? 9 MS. PARK: Three. The originally 10 marked exhibit, which goes to the witness. 11 MR. LINDNER: Can you please give it 12 to the witness, Marian? 13 MS. PARK: You just took it. 14 MR. LINDNER: I gave you two 15 documents, didn't I? Oh, no. Sorry, here, 16 sorry. 17 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, give the 18 witness the originally marked document. 19 MR. LINDNER: I'm sorry. Here you go. 20 This is Number 1. I think by Number 18 21 I'll get it down, okay. 22 MS. PARK: Sure look at it. 23 MR. LINDNER: And I gave you my copy 24 by mistake. No, I'm serious. Number 1, 0162 1 Lin 2 I'm better at Number 18. I'm describing 3 the document. This is about a seven page 4 document and it is titled Settlement 5 Agreement and General Release, and I note 6 that on the last page it has a signature of 7 Peter Lindner Pro Se, dated June 15, 2000. 8 Q Qing, do you have that document in front 9 of you? 10 A This document you are referring to? 11 MR. LINDNER: This is called Exhibit 12 1? 13 THE STENOGRAPHER: Yes. 14 MR. LINDNER: Is it called, like, 15 Plaintiff 1, or Plaintiff Qing or how do 16 you -- 17 THE STENOGRAPHER: Plaintiff's Exhibit 18 1 as of today's date. 19 Q Qing, have you ever seen this document 20 before? 21 A Let me read it first. 22 (Witness perusing) 23 MS. PARK: Mr. Lin, in the interest of 24 time, if you could just go through it and 0163 1 Lin 2 just see if you just recognize it. I 3 believe that was the initial question. 4 A I'm sorry, I forgot about the question. 5 Your question is, have I seen this before? 6 Q Yes. 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. That's fair. 9 A Do you want me to continue reviewing it? 10 Q No. I'm just going to direct you to 11 different parts of it; okay? I'd like you to look 12 at the first paragraph and it says that the 13 agreement is between American Express Travel 14 Related Services, also known as The Company and 15 Peter W. Lindner, also known as Peter Lindner, for 16 the purpose of resolving matters in dispute 17 between the parties. Are you familiar with the 18 company American Express Travel Related Services? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you work for them? 21 A Yes. I do not know whether Travel 22 Related Services Organization. So I have not 23 heard that term for a while, so. But it was a 24 division or subsidiary of American Express 0164 1 Lin 2 Company. 3 Q So, to the best of your knowledge, does 4 it exist today? 5 A I do not know legally if TRS is the 6 legal entity or not. I do not know. 7 Q But you know that it used to be part of 8 American Express? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you ever work for, I call it TRS? 11 A Yes. By the way, so did I. So, this is 12 a dispute that has been settled. Now, if you read 13 the first paragraph it says -- Can you read it out 14 loud. 15 MS. PARK: No, we stipulate that it 16 says what it says. He is not reading the 17 whole document into the record. 18 MR. LINDNER: Not the whole document. 19 I just want him to read the first two 20 sentences. 21 Q Can you read "Whereas," Qing? 22 A I can read it. 23 Q Please read it out loud? 24 A Do I have -- 0165 1 Lin 2 Q Yes. 3 A This Settled Mentioned Agreement -- 4 Q No, no. Jump to the second paragraph 5 "Whereas?" 6 A You want me to read the whole second 7 paragraph? 8 Q Correct? 9 A "WHEREAS, Mr. Lindner, a former employee 10 of the Company, has made allegations that he was 11 discriminated against based on his sex, subjected 12 to Sexual Harassment and Retaliation, and defamed, 13 has filed a charge of discrimination against the 14 Company with the Equal Employment Opportunity 15 Commission ("EEOC") (Charge Number 160992838), 16 asserted certain claims for damages, and has 17 commenced a civil action in the Civil Court of the 18 City of New York, Index No. 038441-CVN-1999, 19 against American Express Corporation, Richard 20 Tambor and Ash Gupta (the foregoing are herein 21 collectively referred to as "Mr. Lindner's 22 Claims'). 23 MR. LINDNER: Thank you, very much. I 24 appreciate that. You took the extra effort 0166 1 Lin 2 to do that. That's very nice. 3 Q Alright. Well, you know Peter Lindner 4 and that is me. That is correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And, of course, you know American 7 Express Corporation because you worked for them 8 since 1990. Is that correct? 9 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you previously mentioned Ash Gupta; 12 correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And he is your boss now; correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you know if he was your boss in 1999 17 or 1998? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did you report directly to him? 20 A There is a period of time, as you 21 mentioned, in 1999 I'm not directly reporting to 22 him. I was not directly reporting to him. 23 Q But there was a time where you were 24 directly reporting to him? 0167 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you know Rich Tambor? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. LINDNER: T-a-m-b-o-r. 6 Q Who is he? 7 A He used to be an employee of American 8 Express. 9 Q Did he work with you, for you, under you 10 or over you, what? 11 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 12 Q How was Richard Tambor related to you? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 14 hasn't even testified that there is any 15 relation. 16 Q Do you know Richard Tambor? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How do you know him? 19 A He was an employee of American Express. 20 Q Was he in the same group as you? 21 A Define same group. 22 Q If you had to say how Richard Tambor and 23 you were related, would there be some sort of 24 document that you could find that would indicate 0168 1 Lin 2 the relation between Richard Tambor and Qing Lin? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 A I do not understand the question. 5 Q Did Richard Tambor work for Ash Gupta? 6 A Yes, at point of times. 7 Q And you worked for Ash Gupta at a point 8 in time? 9 A Yes. 10 Q So you both worked for Ash Gupta? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Is there any document that would 13 indicate that? 14 A There could be. I do not know. 15 Q What would such a document be called? 16 A Organization Chart. Human Resource may 17 have different documents. 18 MR. LINDNER: No, that's fine. I 19 hereby request the Organization Chart from 20 1998/1999 to show what the relation is. 21 Ms. Park, have you already provided that 22 document? 23 MS. PARK: Move on, Mr. Lindner. 24 MR. LINDNER: I'm directing this 0169 1 Lin 2 question to you, Ms. Park. 3 MS. PARK: You have been provided with 4 all documents that relate to your case. 5 MR. LINDNER: Can you -- 6 MS. PARK: You've been provided with 7 all documents relevant to your case. 8 MR. LINDNER: Is that one of the 9 documents. 10 MS. PARK: You have been provided with 11 all documents relevant to your case. 12 MR. LINDNER: I understand your 13 answer, Ms. Park. 14 MS. PARK: Go back and why don't you 15 look? Why don't you review? 16 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking you a direct 17 question. 18 MS. PARK: I'm not answering your 19 direct question. 20 MR. LINDNER: Are you refusing to 21 answer. 22 MS. PARK: I'm refusing to answer. 23 MR. LINDNER: Marian, can you please 24 note that I wish to ask the Judge, that I 0170 1 Lin 2 want a specific answer from Ms. Park on 3 whether a specific document is in exhibit 4 or not and whether it has been turned over. 5 Q Qing, do you feel it would be relevant 6 whether Richard Tambor and Ash Gupta, you know, if 7 you had an organization chart, that it would be 8 relevant to know what their relationship is to 9 each other? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 11 A I don't understand your question. What 12 do you mean? 13 Q I'll be glad to reword it. Is an 14 organization chart very important in an 15 organization? 16 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 17 Q Is it important in American Express to 18 have an organization chart? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 MR. LINDNER: Okay, objection noted. 21 Q Is it important to have an organization 22 chart? 23 A Define what do you mean important? In 24 general, yes. It's a document that shows 0171 1 Lin 2 organization. 3 Q Amex has millions of documents. Suppose 4 Amex decided we were not going to have an 5 organization chart. Would that be a typical thing 6 or would that be basically impossible for a 7 company of 70,000 employees not to have an 8 organization chart? 9 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 10 A So, are you referring to the 11 organization chart as a piece of paper showing a 12 chart structure or, what you call, a tree 13 structure? 14 Q Yes. 15 A That particular document? 16 Q Yes. 17 A I do not know how important it is. I 18 think Human Resource Department have official 19 document. It may or may not be in that form. So 20 -- 21 Q It might, in an electronic form, for 22 instance. It might not be on paper. It might be 23 a tree structure in a data base; correct? Is that 24 what you mean? 0172 1 Lin 2 A That's what I mean. So, what you call 3 organization chart. So, I do not know. Do you 4 mean specific piece of paper with a tree structure 5 or do you mean in general organization structure? 6 Q But you are aware that you can convert 7 the tree structure into a data base and a data 8 base into a tree structure. Are you aware of that 9 or not? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Have you ever seen yourself on an 12 organization chart? 13 A Yes. 14 Q If you looked at an organization chart, 15 that would be handy to tell who reports to you and 16 whom you report to, direct and dotted line? 17 A Yes. 18 Q In fact, if somebody said, "Who reports 19 to, and who else reports to them?" If you had the 20 organization chart they could instantly find out, 21 right? 22 A So, Peter, if you want to ask me whether 23 an organization chart is typically drawn by a 24 local team as official document? I'm not sure 0173 1 Lin 2 organization chart would constitute as official 3 document. The reason I cannot answer your 4 question is -- 5 Q Yes. 6 A -- if you have to refer to official 7 organization structure at the time, I don't recall 8 any piece drawn by someone at the organization as 9 the official reference for the organization at the 10 time. 11 Q But it would be a good clue, right? It 12 would be a good first approximation, as they would 13 say in mathematics, correct? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 15 A I don't know what is first 16 approximation. 17 Q If somebody wanted to know, have a rough 18 idea of how people related in your group, an 19 organization chart would be one of the first 20 things you would show in order to know that, yes? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Thank you. Can you turn to paragraph 23 13. Do you see your name there? 24 A Let me read it. 0174 1 Lin 2 (Witness perusing) 3 Yes, I do see my name. 4 Q In fact, it is the second name after Ash 5 Gupta, correct? 6 MS. PARK: We stipulate it's the 7 second name after Ash Gupta. 8 MR. LINDNER: Okay, thank you. 9 Q The first sentence, the first sentence 10 on paragraph 13, can you read it out loud? 11 A "The Company agrees to instruct and 12 direct the following Company employees not to 13 disclose any information regarding Mr. Lindner's 14 employment or termination of employment from the 15 Company to any person outside of the Company and 16 to direct all requests for references or 17 inquiries, received by such employees regarding 18 Mr. Lindner to the appropriate Human Resources 19 individuals." 20 Q At that time point it lists a number of 21 people of which you were one, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Does it use the word negative in there? 24 MS. PARK: We stipulate that the word 0175 1 Lin 2 negative does not appear in paragraph 13. 3 Q Qing, I'd like to know, did you give any 4 information about -- and that's the second line of 5 paragraph 13, it says, "The following Company 6 employees did not disclose any information 7 regarding Mr. Lindner's employment to any person 8 outside the company -- 9 MS. PARK: That is not what that 10 document says, Mr. Lindner. 11 Q As you understand it, were you 12 instructed and directed by American Express on 13 this topic? 14 MS. PARK: On the topic set forth in 15 paragraph 13? 16 MR. LINDNER: Please, Ms. Park, I'd 17 like Qing to answer. If you have an 18 objection, raise your objection. 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 Q Qing, have you ever been instructed and 21 directed, as you understand it, as you read 22 paragraph 13? Yes or no? 23 A About paragraph 13? 24 Q What it says, yes. Have you ever been 0176 1 Lin 2 instructed and directed? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did they tell you not to disclose any 5 information? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did you disclose any information? 8 A Yes. 9 Q To whom did you disclose it? 10 A Boaz Salik. 11 Q B-o-a-z S-a-l-i-k? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you do that after I was hired by 14 them or before I was hired by them? 15 MS. PARK: Objection to form. You 16 haven't even established that he knows if 17 you were hired. 18 Q Do you know if I was hired by them? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you know if they talked to you before 21 I was hired by them? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He has 23 already testified he doesn't even know if 24 you were hired. 0177 1 Lin 2 Q Did they ask you for a reference? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you provide them information? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Who is 6 "Them?" 7 Q Did you provide "Any information," to 8 Boaz Salik? 9 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 10 answered. 11 Q I'm asking you to please answer it 12 again. 13 A Yes. 14 MR. LINDNER: Yes, you did. Okay, 15 thank you. 16 Q I'd like to ask you one more thing, and 17 then we will break for lunch. It says, "And to 18 direct all requests for references or inquiries 19 received by such employees regarding Mr. Lindner, 20 to the appropriate Human Resources individuals." 21 Did you direct Mr. Boaz to the appropriate HR, 22 Human Resource individual? 23 A No. 24 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. We 0178 1 Lin 2 can break for lunch. 3 MS. PARK: Could you note the time? 4 THE STENOGRAPHER: 2:05. 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This ends tape 6 number two. We are off the record at 2:05. 7 MS. PARK: Can you note, Ms. Reporter, 8 that this was a break requested by Mr. 9 Lindner. 10 MR. LINDNER: Do you wish to continue? 11 MS. PARK: Sure. 12 THE STENOGRAPHER: I have to grab 13 something. I'm here since 9:30. 14 MS. PARK: Okay, but it wasn't 15 initiated by me or Mr. Lin. I want that 16 clear. 17 MR. LINDNER: I think we have to be 18 sensitive to the fact that we are 19 individuals. 20 Off the record. 21 (Luncheon recess: 2:05 22 p.m.) 23 *** 24 AFTERNOON SESSION 0179 1 Lin 2 (2:56 p.m.) 3 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins tape 5 number 3 in the deposition of Qing Lin. We 6 are on the record at 2:56. 7 MS. PARK: Note, for the record, that 8 Mr. Lin and I were ready to proceed at 9 2:45. Mr. Lindner returned from lunch late 10 which is why we are recommencing at 2:56. 11 MR. LINDNER: And how long was I late, 12 Ms. Park? 13 MS. PARK: 2:45 we were supposed to be 14 back on the record. 15 MR. LINDNER: So, how many minutes is 16 that? 17 MS. PARK: That is eleven minutes, 18 Mr. Lindner. 19 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. I 20 appreciate that. Alright, we will continue 21 the questions. 22 23 Q I N G L I N, 24 resumed, having been previously duly sworn, 0180 1 Lin 2 was examined and testified further as follows: 3 EXAMINATION BY 4 MR. LINDNER: (Continued) 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins tape 6 number 3 in the deposition of Qing Lin. We 7 are on the record at 2:56. 8 MR. LINDNER: I'm Peter Lindner. I'm 9 back on the record. Ms. Park pointed out I 10 was eleven minutes late. Did I mention 11 Ms. Park was eleven minutes late this 12 morning? So, we are going to go over some 13 other documents that I have and I'm getting 14 them out of my brief case right now. It is 15 actually two different Exhibits, and we 16 will affectionally call them Plaintiff Qing 17 2 and 3, but I'm going to first get them 18 and see if they are right. I note that 19 Ms. Park is watching me intently. I've the 20 documents in hand now. I have to label 21 them and pass it to Marian, who will label 22 it. Sorry, if I'm talking while I'm doing 23 it. It is new to me, but this is 2 and 3. 24 The documents I have are entitled -- 0181 1 Lin 2 My second one is entitled Amended 3 Complaint, which is a 16 page document, 4 filed 12/20/2006, and I'm going to give a 5 copy to Marian who is going to mark it and 6 we will take a break while she does that. 7 (Whereupon Plaintiff's 8 Exhibit 2 was received and 9 marked for identification, 10 as of this date.) 11 And that is the one I give to the 12 witness? 13 THE STENOGRAPHER: Yes. 14 MR. LINDNER: Then I have another 15 document to give. That document I will 16 affectionately call Plaintiff Qing 3 and 17 I'm giving that to Marian to mark. 18 MS. PARK: And I want to note for the 19 record that Mr. Lindner has his own 20 stickers, which he appears to be appending 21 to the documents that he is having 22 officially marked by the court reporter. 23 I, on the other hand, do not have any 24 copies of any exhibits with Mr. Lindner's 0182 1 Lin 2 stickers on them. 3 MR. LINDNER: And I appreciate that 4 you noted it. 5 (Whereupon Plaintiff's 6 Exhibit 3 was received and 7 marked for identification, 8 as of this date.) 9 So, I have two exhibits and one is 10 entitled Amended Complaint Jury Trial 11 Demanded, filed December 20, 2006, Document 12 Number 17, which is 16 pages, and the other 13 one is called the Answer. It is 8 pages, 14 filed January 23, 2007, and I'm going to 15 hand both of these to, and I almost knocked 16 out the plug, to Qing. With my apologies 17 to everyone. 18 Q So, Qing, will you take a moment and 19 take a look at that document? 20 MS. PARK: Which one? You've handed 21 him two. 22 Q Have you ever seen document Number 2. 23 (Witness perusing.) 24 MS. PARK: Qing, as you look at the 0183 1 Lin 2 document, and consider the question: If 3 you have ever seen this document, except as 4 you may have seen it in consultation with 5 me. 6 A So, I do not know the difference between 7 these two documents -- 8 MS. PARK: Just focus on Exhibit 2, 9 and Mr. Lindner has asked you if you have 10 ever seen this document before and you 11 should answer that question, if you have 12 seen this document before other than in 13 consultation with me. 14 MR. LINDNER: So, I'm going to direct 15 him to answer whether he has seen it at 16 all -- 17 MS. PARK: No. 18 MR. LINDNER: And -- 19 MS. PARK: That is Attorney/Client 20 Privilege Mr. Lindner. 21 MR. LINDNER: I think Attorney/Client 22 Privilege is what you said not whether you 23 showed him a document. 24 MS. PARK: That is not true. 0184 1 Lin 2 Attorney/Client Privilege also extends to 3 work product privilege and to the extent 4 that Mr. Lin and I reviewed the Amended 5 Complaint together that, if it were in fact 6 the case, would be a privileged fact. So, 7 I'm going to direct Mr. Lin to, when 8 answering the question, not to divulge 9 whether he reviewed this document with me. 10 THE WITNESS: Let me restate your 11 statement and see what I saw (sic). 12 MS. PARK: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: I understand this 14 question to say, whether I have seen this 15 document without you -- outside of 16 discussion with you. 17 MS. PARK: Correct. 18 A No, I have not seen this document 19 outside of discussion with my attorney. 20 Q I'm sorry? 21 A Outside of discussion with my attorneys. 22 Q Do you have a copy of that document on 23 your own? 24 A Do I have a copy of this document on my 0185 1 Lin 2 own? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Obtained outside -- 5 Q At all? 6 MS. PARK: Do you have a copy outside, 7 same direction. 8 A No. 9 Q So you may have a copy but, if you do 10 have a copy, it is not on your own, it's only from 11 your attorney? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That 13 wasn't his testimony. 14 Q Can you restate what your answer is, 15 Qing? 16 A Could you restate your question? 17 Q I was asking a question and Ms. Park 18 said that was not your testimony. So, what is 19 your testimony regarding you having possession of 20 one of these documents in some format? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. You are 22 on Exhibit 2. What do you mean, "These 23 documents?" 24 MR. LINDNER: This document, it's a 0186 1 Lin 2 number of pages. 3 MS. PARK: Which document? 4 MR. LINDNER: Exhibit 2. 5 A So, based on Ms. Park's has advice -- To 6 clarify the question, the question is: Have I 7 owned this document outside of what Ms. Park has 8 given me? 9 Q Right? 10 A No. 11 Q This might be the first time you've seen 12 it or you might have seen it with Ms. Park or 13 Ms. Park might have given you a copy to take home; 14 is that correct? 15 MS. PARK: I'm going to direct you not 16 to answer. You are soliciting 17 Attorney/Client Privileged information. 18 MR. LINDNER: I'm not. 19 MS. PARK: Yes, you are. You are 20 asking if he reviewed the document with me. 21 That is protected by Attorney/Client 22 Privilege. 23 MR. LINDNER: I'm not asking that. 24 I'm just saying if he has a copy and it is 0187 1 Lin 2 covered by the Attorney/Client Privilege, 3 good. If he has a copy on his own, you 4 know, I just want to know one of those 5 things. Okay, I guess it doesn't make 6 sense. I withdraw the question. 7 Q Let me ask it this way. So, that is an 8 Amended Complaint. Do you know what an Amended 9 Complaint is? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay, I understand you are not a lawyer. 12 I'd like you to read the part in between the 13 dotted lines. What does it say? 14 A Which document? 15 MS. PARK: Which portion of document 16 -- 17 MR. LINDNER: Document Number 2. 18 MS. PARK: What dotted line. 19 MR. LINDNER: The one that says -- Oh, 20 it's a straight line. Whatever it is. The 21 one that says, "Peter W. Lindner, Plaintiff 22 -- 23 MS. PARK: We stipulate that the 24 document says, "Peter W. Lindner, 0188 1 Lin 2 Plaintiff, against American Express 3 Corporation and Qing Lin, Defendants." We 4 stipulate to that. Move on. 5 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. I 6 was asking him, but if you want to 7 stipulate, that's fine. 8 Q So, now I'm going to direct you to 9 Document Number 3. Document Number 3 has a simple 10 title of "Answer." Do you see that Qing? 11 A What is the question? 12 Q It has a title -- 13 MS. PARK: We stipulate that 14 Plaintiff's 3 is titled "Answer." Move on. 15 MR. LINDNER: I think Qing doesn't see 16 how. Do you maybe want to point it out to 17 your client? 18 MS. PARK: We stipulate that the 19 document is titled "Answer?" 20 Q Qing, do you see that? 21 A I see, "Answer," bold with underline. 22 MR. LINDNER: Yes, that is what I 23 meant by the title. I'm glad that you 24 clarified it. That's exactly what I meant. 0189 1 Lin 2 Q So, what we are going to do is we are 3 going to look at these pairs of documents, because 4 one is when the other side answers it. It's a 5 complaint followed by an answer. 6 MS. PARK: That's your 7 characterization. 8 MR. LINDNER: That is my 9 characterization. 10 Q So, these paragraphs are numbered and 11 I'd like to direct you to, let's say -- We are 12 going to jump ahead here. We are going to go to 13 the middle of the document. 14 MS. PARK: Which document, Mr. 15 Lindner? You haven't even asked him -- 16 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, please, I 17 appreciate that you want to get an answer. 18 I appreciate that you want to go quickly 19 but I'm asking you to please let me do it 20 at my own pace and stop interrupting me. 21 Thank you. Will you please do that? 22 You're acting obstructionist. 23 Q So, now we are going to go in tandem. 24 What I mean by that is, we are going to compare 0190 1 Lin 2 one document to another document because, as I see 3 it, and I'm not a lawyer, is that I am making 4 specific complaints or allegations, and then the 5 other side, and the other side is American Express 6 and Qing Lin, which is you, are responding to it 7 and answering that complaint. Does that make 8 sense to you, Qing? 9 A I understand what you said. 10 Q Very good. That's what I'm asking. 11 Let's go to Document Number 3 and there is 12 paragraph on page 6 of 8 -- 13 MS. PARK: Why don't you just ask him 14 if he has ever seen this document, since 15 you have failed to do that? 16 MR. LINDNER: Okay. 17 Q Can you please turn to page 6 of 18 Document 3. Have you ever seen that before? 19 MS. PARK: Seen what, paragraph -- 20 MR. LINDNER: Page 6. 21 MS. PARK: Page 6, paragraph -- Has 22 he -- 23 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, please? 24 MS. PARK: No, no clarification. Has 0191 1 Lin 2 he ever seen Exhibit 3 or -- 3 MR. LINDNER: If Qing wants 4 clarification, he can ask it. I'm not 5 asking you the questions. I'm sure you 6 understand this question. I'm sure you 7 could give very good answers. I'm not 8 asking you. I know I can depose you and 9 get great answers but I don't want to 10 depose you, I wish to depose -- 11 MS. PARK: Ask your question. 12 MR. LINDNER: -- Qing Lin. 13 MS. PARK: Ask your question. 14 MR. LINDNER: Alright. So, please do 15 not interrupt me again. 16 MS. PARK: Ask your question. 17 A Your question again? 18 Q Do you recognize that page? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay, good. Look at -- in between 21 paragraph 40 and 41 there is something in bold 22 type, all capitals. Can you read that, please? 23 A "As And For A First Affirmative 24 Defense." 0192 1 Lin 2 Q Do you understand what that phrase 3 means? 4 A No. 5 Q You know it is a complicated phrase. 6 I'm not sure that I understand it. I'm not a 7 lawyer either. But if I had to guess, cause I 8 understand English fairly well, I would say that 9 somebody is defending themselves, and affirmative 10 it means that they are using positive statements 11 as opposed to negative statements. That's how I 12 interpret it. I might be totally wrong. That's 13 my understanding of English. 14 If you were looking at this, and I'm not 15 going to say if you were looking at this as a 16 graduate of Harvard Law School, I'm asking if you 17 were looking at this as an executive of a large 18 firm and somebody said: As and for a first 19 affirmative defense." How would you interpret 20 that phrase. 21 MS. PARK: Objection. He has already 22 testified he doesn't know what that means. 23 MR. LINDNER: Objection noted. 24 Q How would you interpret that phrase? 0193 1 Lin 2 A So, Peter, I just do not understand what 3 you just said. 4 Q Okay. If somebody said to you: A First 5 Affirmative Defense. You understand all three of 6 those words: First, affirmative, defense, right? 7 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 8 answered. 9 Q Do you understand any of those words? 10 A I know what is first. 11 Q Okay, first, good. 12 A I know what is defense. 13 Q That's good. 14 A I know what is affirmative but I do not 15 know -- 16 Q What first affirmative is. Okay, I just 17 want to know. That's all I was asking. Do you 18 know what that means. If you can puzzle (sic) it 19 out, just like an English Major can puzzle (sic) 20 out what risk management means. You know, you 21 don't have to know a field to infer. 22 Now, we are going to say -- We are going 23 read line 41. Line 41, can you read it out loud? 24 A "The complaint fails to state a cause of 0194 1 Lin 2 action upon which relief may be granted." 3 Q Okay, what is your factual basis for 4 saying that the complaint failed to state the 5 cause of objection? 6 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 7 A I do not understand this sentence. 8 Q Let me explain it to you -- 9 MS. PARK: No, let me explain this to 10 you, Mr. Lindner. These are legal 11 defenses. Mr. Lin is not an attorney. 12 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, I'm making an 13 objection. I'm not asking him as an 14 attorney. Ms. Park, if you object, I 15 appreciate. It's noted on the record. 16 Please, stop acting obstructionist. 17 MS. PARK: Why don't you start by 18 asking him if he even knows what it means? 19 Can you frame a proper question? 20 MR. LINDNER: Maybe I can't, Ms. Park. 21 Unfortunately, I don't have you as my 22 lawyer -- 23 MS. PARK: Why don't you try asking 24 him if he understands what paragraph 41 0195 1 Lin 2 means, before you start asking him for 3 facts. 4 MR. LINDNER: Well, write down all 5 your questions and I'll look at them and 6 consider asking them. But in the mean 7 time, let me ask him the questions and 8 please don't interrupt me again, or this 9 time, I'm serious, I am calling the judge 10 if you interrupt me. 11 MS. PARK: I'd love for you to call 12 the judge. I'd love to explain to him what 13 you are doing. 14 MR. LINDNER: Very good. Please, be 15 quiet. I'm begging you. 16 Q So, basically, I made an allegation, as 17 I see it. I said, for instance, that there is a 18 whole bunch of things here. You know, that Qing 19 did this, or Amex did that, or I did this, or 20 Fisher Jordan did that and American Express, who 21 is a party to this suit, said: I don't know, that 22 might be true, might not be true. They didn't use 23 these words. That is not legalese, but another 24 party to this suite, and as I understand it, it's 0196 1 Lin 2 called a named party, is you, Qing Lin. 3 So, for instance, if you were 4 knowledgeable about this event, and I'm assuming 5 that you are, so, you would have said to your 6 lawyers: Such and such, here are the facts, and 7 they would have written what -- in the appropriate 8 legal terms what that means. So, basically, you, 9 meaning American Express and Qing Lin, have said 10 Peter Lindner's Complaint, that's what they mean 11 by the Complaint, Peter Lindner's Complaint fails 12 to state a Cause of Action upon which relief maybe 13 granted. Now, basically, if you say something you 14 have to have, like, a factual basis -- 15 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 16 MR. LINDNER: Yes, Ms. Park. 17 Q So, I'm asking, what is the factual 18 basis for that statement? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 A So, Peter, I'm sorry. I just cannot 21 understand what you just said. You were just 22 reading this -- I understand, when you read the 23 sentence, you try to explain and I cannot 24 understand what you said. 0197 1 Lin 2 Q Let's move on and maybe we will come 3 back to it later. Let's go onto number 42, 4 alright? Can you read 42, please? 5 A "The Complaint is barred, in part, by 6 the applicable Statute of Limitations." 7 Q Okay, is there any part of that sentence 8 that you understand or you don't understand? 9 A I do not understand. 10 Q Any of it, okay? Have you ever heard of 11 the Statute of Limitations? 12 A I don't remember hearing that. I do not 13 understand it. 14 Q Do you know what a statute is? 15 A A statute -- 16 Q As far as I know, it is a law. 17 A Okay. 18 Q A book of statutes. And the 19 limitations, you do understand what that means, 20 right? 21 A I understand what limitations means. 22 Q And this Statute of Limitations is a 23 limit on the laws. For instance -- 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 0198 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, is there a 3 question? 4 MR. LINDNER: Yes, there is. 5 MS. PARK: What's the question? 6 MR. LINDNER: I asked him the 7 question. He didn't understand it. So, 8 I'm explaining it. 9 MS. PARK: He doesn't have to take 10 your explanation. He already testified to 11 it. 12 MR. LINDNER: He doesn't have to take 13 it but I'm trying to explain it. So, 14 please, Ms. Park, I understand your 15 objection and it is noted on the record. 16 Q So, Statute of Limitations is basically 17 how long you can be prosecuted for a crime. For 18 instance, if you murder somebody the Statute of 19 Limitations is forever. However, if you shoplift 20 or jaywalk, it might have a Statute of Limitations 21 of one year or five years or ten years. 22 In other words, if somebody goes to you 23 and says: Qing, you did the following act, and it 24 was a minor act, and the Statute of Limitations 0199 1 Lin 2 had past, you would not be guilty, because the law 3 says for murder you can go back over 10 years but 4 for a trivial thing you are only limited to one 5 year or five years. Does that make sense? 6 A Not entirely, so. 7 Q Well, you can see that, if it's a 8 trivial matter, that at some point the courts 9 don't want to be burdened with it, but on 10 something as serious as murder they would keep it 11 open for a while. Do you see that? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 13 A I understand what you said but I do not 14 understand what it means on the -- 15 Q Do you do your own taxes? 16 A No. 17 Q No. But you are familiar with a little 18 bit of Tax Code; correct? 19 A I'm not sure. 20 Q Do you keep records for taxes? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Do you keep them for 19 years? You have 23 been in American Express 19 years. Do you have 19 24 years of tax records? 0200 1 Lin 2 A I don't remember. Somewhere in the 3 basement I might have. I don't know. 4 Q Unfortunately, you and I share that 5 trait. But actually my accountant says you have 6 to keep your records for three years or seven 7 years but then you can throw them out. 8 A So, I understand that concept but I do 9 not understand what do you mean in relation to 10 this. 11 Q How do you understand the concept? I'd 12 appreciate your answer. 13 A The tax form, you just tell me, I only 14 need to keep my 1040's for three years. I 15 understand that part. 16 Q So, in other words, if the IRS comes to 17 you and says: Give me your tax form from last 18 year, and you don't have it, then you are in 19 trouble. But if they ask for your tax form from 20 20 years ago, it's okay, right? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 Q Do you -- How do you -- 23 A Yes, I understand that. 24 Q So, now, on this -- So, that's what 0201 1 Lin 2 limitations -- As I understand it, again I'm not a 3 lawyer, and don't base your taxes based upon what 4 I say, but if you -- The reply here, the answer 5 from American Express and Qing Lin was that the 6 Complaint, my Complaint is barred by the 7 applicable Statute of Limitation. So, as I 8 understand it, if I complained at an earlier point 9 in time, it would have been a valid complaint -- 10 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 11 MR. LINDNER: Yes, there is. 12 Ms. Park, please stop interrupting. 13 Q So, if I had complained earlier then it 14 would be a valid complaint. But if you wait too 15 long, you know, if you wait five years, ten years, 16 twenty years, whatever, then the statute of 17 Limitations takes hold and I cannot complain. 18 Does that make sense? 19 A So, is that your question? 20 Q Does it make sense? 21 A Does it make sense? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 23 A I'm not understanding, I don't know. 24 Q Does it make sense that if you make an 0202 1 Lin 2 objection early you are allowed to do it, but if 3 you make it too late then the objection is not 4 valid? 5 A I'm not a lawyer. I cannot judge on 6 that. What they can say or not. I cannot judge. 7 I just do not understand. 8 Q But you understand it for tax receipts, 9 right? 10 A You tell me I have to keep my 1040's for 11 three years -- 12 Q Yes. 13 A I understand that statement but here you 14 are asking me a legal judgment. I just cannot 15 make it. 16 Q The lawyers made the legal judgment but 17 what you did was you gave them the factual basis 18 for this statement. So, do you have a factual 19 basis? 20 MS. PARK: Objection. 21 A I do not understand that statement. So, 22 I do not know what is a factual basis supporting 23 those statements. 24 Q For instance, if I allege that Qing Lin 0203 1 Lin 2 threw out a 1040 that was a year old, then that 3 would be within the Statute of Limitations and -- 4 MS. PARK: Objection. Objection to 5 form. He has repeatedly testified he 6 doesn't even know what paragraph 40 means. 7 MR. LINDNER: Well, I think we are 8 teasing out the answer. I think he is an 9 intelligent man. 10 A Peter, I just don't know what you said 11 because you are talking about the tax, you are 12 talking about laws -- 13 Q Taxes are laws. By the way, there are 14 certain laws called tax laws and they have 15 limited -- 16 A Peter, I'm sorry, I'm not a tax lawyer. 17 Q I understand. 18 A You tried to explain a piece of law. I 19 just cannot understand your explanation. I do not 20 know how to proceed from here. 21 Q Let's go to the next one. Can you read 22 Number 43? 23 A "Plaintiff's -- I'm sorry I do not know 24 this word. 0204 1 Lin 2 Q Culpable. 3 A -- culpable conduct and/or failure to 4 mitigate contributed to any damages allegedly 5 incurred by him as a result of Defendants' alleged 6 actions." 7 Q Okay. So, do you know who the defendant 8 is? 9 A Yes. 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. There 11 are two defendants. It's plural 12 possessive. 13 Q Do you know who the defendants are? 14 A American Express and myself. 15 Q Correct. Do you know who the plaintiff 16 is? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Whom? 19 MR. LINDNER: Let the record show he 20 was referring to the Plaintiff Pro Se, 21 Peter Lindner. 22 Q If it says, "Plaintiff's culpable 23 conduct contributed to damages allegedly incurred 24 by him as a result of Defendant's alleged 0205 1 Lin 2 actions," do you understand that? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you understand what failure to 5 mitigate means? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you understand what failure means? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you know what mitigate means? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What does mitigate mean? 12 A Mitigate means to manage or reduce. 13 Q To reduce, yes. 14 A That's my understanding -- 15 Q That's my understanding too. So, 16 failure to mitigate means -- 17 A I don't know what's the legal meaning. 18 Q No, but what does it mean in English? 19 You just used the word. You said failure to 20 mitigate, failure to reduce, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Ms. Park, would say, asked and answered. 23 But do you understand, failure to mitigate is 24 another way of saying, I failed to reduce? 0206 1 Lin 2 A I understand what your explanation is. 3 But I don't know what is the legal meaning. 4 MR. LINDNER: Believe it or not it is 5 the same thing. 6 MS. PARK: That is your 7 characterization. 8 MR. LINDNER: That's my 9 characterization. 10 MS. PARK: Which he doesn't have to 11 accept. 12 MR. LINDNER: You don't have to accept 13 it. 14 Q You understand what damages means, 15 right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you understand what allegedly means? 18 A Alleged? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Allegedly, I think I do. 21 Q Okay, what does it mean? 22 A It means accused. 23 Q Well, sometimes, yes. But also means 24 supposedly. Perhaps. But, in other words, if I 0207 1 Lin 2 say, I'm the King of England. You could say, 3 Allegedly you are the King of England. You know, 4 it sort of implies some sense of scepticism. So, 5 when you say, Any damages allegedly occurred, it's 6 not saying that American Express is even conceding 7 that there are damages but they are saying that 8 Peter Lindner is claiming that there are damages. 9 You understand that? 10 MS. PARK: Objection. He understands 11 that's your characterization. 12 MR. LINDNER: Okay. 13 Q So, if I say, Plaintiff's conduct failed 14 to mitigate any damages incurred as a result of 15 defendant's actions, does that sentence make 16 sense? 17 A No. 18 Q Can you restate this, using, instead of 19 plaintiff's, say Peter. Instead of mitigate, say 20 reduce and cut out that bit saying culpable 21 conduct. 22 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, my client said 23 he doesn't know what this means. What are 24 you trying to do? 0208 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: I'm trying to break it 3 down into pieces. It's called divide and 4 conquer. 5 Q Qing, can you please say the sentence 6 and use the names here, okay? 7 A Are you asking me a question or are you 8 asking me to do something? 9 Q I'm asking you to do something. I'm 10 asking you to read Number 43 and I'm asking you to 11 substitute my name or your name, whichever would 12 make it simpler. Sometimes people get confused. 13 I have say, I get confused -- 14 THE WITNESS: So, Ms. Park, am I -- 15 MR. LINDNER: You don't have to ask 16 Ms. Park. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm consulting with -- 18 MR. LINDNER: No, I asked a question 19 and you don't have a right to ask any 20 question until you answer my question. 21 Please trust me on this -- 22 MS. PARK: No, Mr. Lindner, he has the 23 right to ask me. 24 MR. LINDNER: After he answers the 0209 1 Lin 2 question. 3 Q My question to you was: Would you 4 please read this statement substituting Peter for 5 plaintiff and Qing for defendant? Will you do so? 6 A I need to consult with my attorney 7 because you are asking me to do something. Before 8 I give the answer as to will do or not I have the 9 right to consult with my attorney. 10 MR. LINDNER: I understand what you 11 are saying and, in fact, you are allowed 12 but the rules say, and trust me on this, 13 that the rules say you first have to answer 14 and, after you finish answering the 15 question, then you can consult with your 16 attorney. 17 MS. PARK: No, no. At that point I'm 18 directing my client not to answer. I think 19 you are harassing him, Mr. Lindner. He has 20 testified that he does not understand what 21 paragraph 43 means. I have spent seven 22 minutes listening to you repeat the same 23 question over and over again. 24 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, your objection 0210 1 Lin 2 is noted. 3 MS. PARK: Good. Let's move on. 4 Q Qing, can you please read that sentence 5 substituting Peter and Qing instead of the 6 plaintiff and defendant, and just get rid of the 7 word mitigate and use the simpler word reduce. 8 Can you, please, do that? 9 MS. PARK: No, I'm directing my client 10 not to answer. Move on. You're harassing 11 him. Move on. 12 MR. LINDNER: I wish to put an 13 objection in the record that Ms. Park is 14 saying that I'm harassing him when I'm 15 asking him to perform something. Please 16 note that I wish to raise that with the 17 judge. 18 Q Okay, Number 44, says, "The Complaint is 19 barred, in part, by the doctrine of unclean 20 hands." 21 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 22 Q Do you see that Mr. Lin? 23 A Do I read that on this piece of paper? 24 Q Yes. 0211 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you understand what unclean hands 4 are? 5 A No. 6 Q You don't understand what the doctrine 7 of unclean hands are, but you understand what 8 unclean hands are? 9 A I understand what is unclean. I 10 understand what are hands. I do not understand 11 the legal meaning of unclean hands. 12 Q Right. But, nonetheless, this is Amex 13 and Qing Lin's affirmative defense, and sometimes 14 there is a basis for that, and I want to know what 15 is a factual basis for you, and I have to ask 16 American Express, whom can I ask, and I can't ask 17 myself, I'm asking you. You are American Express. 18 MS. PARK: Objection. 19 Q You are the named person. Are you named 20 in this suit, Qing? 21 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 22 answered. We stipulate he is. 23 Q So, when I want to find out what facts 24 upon which this is based I'm having a little 0212 1 Lin 2 difficulty finding it out, because you don't seem 3 to have the answer. Do you? 4 MS. PARK: Objection. 5 Q Do you have the answer? 6 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, these are 7 legal defenses. Mr. Lin is not a lawyer. 8 He has said repeatedly he doesn't even 9 understand what the affirmative defense is. 10 How he can give you the factual basis for 11 something he doesn't understand, in the 12 first place, is beyond me. You are 13 badgering my witness. Move on. 14 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, I don't need 15 speeches from you. Do you want to object? 16 MS. PARK: I object. You are 17 badgering, harassing my client. 18 MR. LINDNER: If you want to object, 19 note it on the record and it will be noted, 20 alright? Please do not give speeches. 21 Thank you very much. 22 Q So, Ms. Park objected but I'm asking 23 you, as best you can understand, even though you 24 don't know -- You know what a doctrine is, right 0213 1 Lin 2 or not? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know what barred means? 5 A Prohibit. 6 Q Right. So, if you were to read this 7 sentence substituting Peter or whatever -- 8 A Which sentence? 9 Q Number 44. 10 A Yes, I've read it. 11 Q Can you read it saying out loud, you 12 know, instead of the Complaint you can say, 13 Peter's complaint is prohibited -- How would you 14 say that? Read the whole sentence. 15 A I do not know because I do not know 16 whether I have the right not to follow your 17 instructions on reading specific things. 18 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, can you 19 instruct him? 20 MS. PARK: Just go ahead and read it. 21 It is his time and he is wasting it. 22 A "The Complaint is barred, in part, by 23 the doctrine of unclean hands." 24 Q Okay. But now substitute the simpler 0214 1 Lin 2 words or, you know, the name. Is it your 3 Complaint or my Complaint? Whose Complaint? 4 Peter's Complaint? Qing's Complaint? Can you 5 please reread that using the names of the people? 6 A So, replace which word with which word. 7 Q Well, barred, for instance. You said, 8 "prohibited;" right? So, read it with the word 9 prohibited in there. 10 A The Complaint is prohibited in part by 11 the doctrine of unclean hands. 12 Q Right, and would have said it, Peter's 13 Complaint is barred by the doctrine of unclean 14 hands. It makes it a little simpler. It may not 15 be crystal clear. I'm trying to break it down to 16 simpler things. Do you know the factual basis for 17 saying that? 18 A I still do not understand what you said? 19 Q Okay, that's fine. I'm not asking you. 20 Now, read Number 45. It says, "The plaintiff 21 failed to exhaust his administrative remedies." 22 Can you tell me what the factual basis is for the 23 plaintiff, and that would mean me? So it said, 24 "Peter failed to exhaust his administrative 0215 1 Lin 2 remedies. Can you tell me how I failed to exhaust 3 my administrative remedies, what the factual basis 4 for that is? 5 A I do not understand your question. 6 Q Do you know what administrative remedy 7 is? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you know what administration is? 10 A I think so. Administration, management. 11 Q Yes. As I understand it, and, again, 12 I'm not a lawyer, but, as I understand it, it's 13 something short of a lawsuit. We are in Federal 14 Court. Are you aware of that Qing? 15 A We are in a courthouse, yes. 16 Q A courthouse. Do you recognize that 17 there are different types of courthouses? Not 18 colors and things like that, but that there is a 19 State Courthouse, and a Federal Courthouse, and a 20 local courthouse. In other words, if you get a 21 ticket for littering on the street, dropping a 22 piece of paper, and a policeman writes you a 23 ticket and you go to the courthouse, you recognize 24 or not, that that's a different type of courthouse 0216 1 Lin 2 than this courthouse is? 3 A No, I do not know. 4 Q So, let me tell you, this is a more 5 serious courthouse than the courthouse you would 6 go to if you dropped a gum wrapper on the street 7 and got a ticket and had to pay a fine because, as 8 I understand it, that courthouse handles -- is 9 handled by a town, like New York City, and there 10 are other courthouses that are State Courthouses, 11 and then there are still others that are Federal 12 Government Courthouses. This one, do you know 13 which one it is? 14 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 15 answered. 16 MR. LINDNER: He didn't answer. 17 Q Do you know which one it is? 18 A I know it is a courthouse. I do not 19 know which one. 20 Q You don't know which one. Well, I'll 21 tell you. It's a Federal Courthouse and, if you 22 go to the first page of Document 3, you see the 23 first line there, what it says, the first line in 24 all capitals? 0217 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Can you read it, please? 4 A United States District Court, first 5 line. 6 Q And the next line? 7 A Southern District of New York. 8 Q Yes. So, that gives you a clue that we 9 are not talking the Bronx here, we are not talking 10 about, you know, a little town, we are talking 11 about the United States of America Court, but you 12 don't have to know that. That's a legal term. 13 A I do not know because it is New York 14 here, Southern District of New York. I do not 15 know. It's a courthouse of the Southern District 16 of New York? 17 Q Yes, yes. 18 A I don't know. 19 Q So, I mean -- 20 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 21 MR. LINDNER: Yes, I just wanted to 22 know whether he knew the magnitude of what 23 we are talking about here and the magnitude 24 is that this is not a problem -- 0218 1 Lin 2 A Peter, we are in a courthouse. I know 3 how serious it is. So, you want to ask me, do I 4 know how serious it is? 5 Q Yes? 6 A I recognize I was sworn to oath, telling 7 you everything is true. So, I have done that. 8 So, I do not know -- So, you can ask me do I 9 remember what level court, which district it is? 10 I do not know. 11 Q Well, if it is any comfort, I didn't 12 know it much before this either. 13 MS. PARK: Is there a question. 14 MR. LINDNER: I was just trying to 15 reassure the witness. 16 Q So, I'm glad that you understand that it 17 is a very serious business; right. So, part of it 18 is on Number 45, it says that, and I'm going 19 paraphrase it, Peter failed to exhaust his 20 administrative remedies. So, in other words, 21 instead of going to the Federal Courthouse, which 22 is a very serious thing, there were administrative 23 things I could have done, and that's how I 24 understand it. 0219 1 Lin 2 So, I'm asking you: Do you have any 3 factual basis that you think American Express or 4 you have for making that statement? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Asked 6 and answered. He has already said he 7 doesn't know what it means. 8 MR. LINDNER: Please, Ms. Park, I 9 understand that, but we just had a long 10 discussion, maybe he has clue. 11 MS. PARK: He doesn't have to accept 12 your characterization of what that phrase 13 means, Mr. Lindner. 14 MR. LINDNER: That's true. 15 Q So, do you understand that, Qing? 16 A No. 17 Q Okay. So, then it says, "And to satisfy 18 the jurisdictional of prerequisites under Title 19 7 -- 20 A Where it is? 21 Q Line 45, the second half of the 22 sentence, that -- I'm just going to jump around 23 it. It's going to say: Plaintiff failed to 24 satisfy the jurisdictional prerequisite to suit 0220 1 Lin 2 under Title 7 of the Civil Right Acts of 1964. Do 3 you know what Civil Rights Act means? 4 A No. I think it is a piece of law. 5 Q That's right. That's exactly right. 6 You can infer that as past 1964. Have you had any 7 training at American Express on discrimination? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did they ever talk about Civil Rights? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Chances are, and I'm not a lawyer, and I 12 didn't attend the particular one you went to, I 13 think, when they talked about it, they were 14 talking about this Civil Rights Act. And I am 15 suing you under Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act of 16 1964? 17 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 18 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, I'd appreciate 19 it if you would stop doing that just as I'm 20 about to ask a question. Do you understand 21 what I'm saying? 22 MS. PARK: Yes, and I'll repeat that. 23 Mr. Lin does not have to accept your 24 characterization. 0221 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: He doesn't have to. I'm 3 asking him questions and please stop 4 saying, "Is there a question?" There is a 5 question and if you ask me again -- Please 6 note on the record that Ms. Park has again 7 violated my instructions to stop asking if 8 there is a question. Of course there is a 9 question. So, Ms. Park, I'm going to write 10 down a note to myself. Ms. Park cut me 11 off, if I had a question or not. It was 12 just as I was about to get to the question. 13 Q So, I'm sorry to do this, to you Qing, 14 but I'm going to have to repeat this, and that is 15 it says: Peter failed to satisfy the 16 jurisdictional prerequisites to suite under Title 17 7 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Do you have a 18 clue as to what that means? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 A No. 21 Q No clue? 22 A No. 23 Q So, if somebody said, My rights were 24 violated, my Civil Rights were violated. That 0222 1 Lin 2 would mean nothing to you, correct? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 A I do not understand your question. 5 Q If somebody said: My civil rights were 6 violated, do you understand what that means? 7 A Not entirely in the legal term. 8 Q I'm not asking entirely. But do you 9 understand, if somebody said: My civil rights are 10 violated, what does that mean? Does it have any 11 meaning to you at all? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 13 A Yes. 14 Q What would it mean to you? 15 A A human right being violated. 16 Q Can you give an example? 17 A Say someone lock you up in some room and 18 not give you food. 19 Q Exactly. Exactly. There are certain 20 rights you have as a person and I think it's 21 civil, civil rights. That's as I understand it. 22 I don't know -- I was alive during this time. 23 1964 is when a lot of blacks had troubles in the 24 South with being accepted and they had a policy 0223 1 Lin 2 where they had to keep separate and they went to 3 separate schools and they couldn't go into a 4 "Whites only" school and this law was past in 5 response to it. That's why it is not a 6 coincidence that there was a lot of unrest in 1964 7 and this law was passed. That's what the Civil 8 Rights Act of 1964. 9 It was meant principally to allow black 10 people to have the full rights of white people. 11 Does that make sense to you? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 13 A I understand what you said. 14 Q Have they ever covered that in training 15 at American Express? 16 A I do not remember. 17 Q Have you been to training at American 18 Express on discrimination? 19 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 20 answered. 21 A Yes. 22 Q Can you tell me what you learned in that 23 class? 24 A What I learned from -- 0224 1 Lin 2 Q From the class on discrimination that 3 you had at American Express. 4 MS. PARK: Objection. 5 Mischaracterizing the witness's testimony. 6 Q Can you please clarify. Did you have 7 training at American Express on subjects other 8 than Risk Management? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you have any training on the subject 11 of discrimination? Do you know what the term 12 discrimination means, let me ask that? 13 A Yes, discrimination as an English word, 14 yes. 15 Q Okay, what does it mean? 16 A As an English definition? 17 Q Yes. 18 A Differentiating -- 19 Q Do you have any idea what it means when 20 you take a class about discrimination in American 21 Express. Do you know what they would talk about? 22 A I do not understand what you mean, 23 "Class about discrimination." 24 Q I'll try to explain it. There are some 0225 1 Lin 2 courses that are taught in the mathematical sense, 3 and there are courses that are taught on 4 secretarial, and there are courses that are taught 5 by Human Relations. Are you aware of those 6 different types of classes? 7 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 8 Q Does American Express have classes that 9 are taught by relations? 10 A Human -- 11 Q Human Resource Department? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Can you name some of the titles of those 14 courses? 15 A Leadership. 16 Q Okay, that's one. Any others? 17 A A lot of situation on leaderships. 18 Q Anything else? 19 A Communications. 20 Q Good. Do they ever have anything that 21 talks about black people versus white people and 22 things like that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What do they call those courses? 0226 1 Lin 2 A I do not remember the exact name. 3 Q How about approximately? 4 A I don't remember the exact names. Like, 5 racial discrimination. 6 Q Yes, racial discrimination. That is 7 exactly what I mean. What does racial 8 discrimination mean? 9 A You treat people differently simply just 10 based on the race of the people. 11 Q Right, exactly, exactly. 12 A If you asked me that question I could 13 have answered it -- 14 Q I'm not that good at, you know, framing 15 the question. I don't know what you know and 16 don't know. A lot of times -- 17 MS. PARK: Could you just ask the 18 question. Let's move on. 19 MR. LINDNER: We are having a moment 20 here. 21 Q Let's jump back to Exhibit Number 2, 22 sentence 1? 23 A Sentence marked 1? 24 Q Yes. It's called Nature of the Action? 0227 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Can you read that, please? 4 A This is an Action for Breach of a 5 Settlement Agreement Retaliation, in violation of 6 Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and 7 tortuous interference with plaintiff's contractual 8 relationships." 9 Q Do you understand roughly what that 10 means? 11 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 12 Q Do you understand what it means at all? 13 Do you know what a Breach of a Settlement 14 Agreement is? 15 A I do not know exactly what's the legal 16 meaning. 17 Q Do you know what a Settlement Agreement 18 is? 19 A I know what is settlement, I know what 20 is agreement, so -- 21 Q Can you hand Qing -- Could you give me 22 the Exhibit Number 1, Plaintiff's Exhibit 1. I 23 have in my hands Plaintiff' Exhibit 1. Can you -- 24 You have looked at it earlier. 0228 1 Lin 2 A Are you referring to the -- 3 Q Can you read what the first two words 4 are? 5 A Settlement Agreement. 6 Q Do you understand what Settlement 7 Agreement is? 8 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 9 answered. 10 A This refer to this document, it say, 11 Agreement. 12 Q It's an Agreement? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you settled something. That's a 15 Settlement Agreement? 16 A Yes. 17 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 18 Q I'm asking, do you understand what that 19 means now, Settlement Agreement? 20 MS. PARK: Objection, asked and 21 answered. 22 Q I understand it. So, Qing do you 23 understand it? 24 A Settlement Agreement refers to this 0229 1 Lin 2 document. 3 Q Correct. yes. Okay. So, Let me just 4 clarify it. When I asked you a few minutes ago 5 what was a Settlement Agreement, you didn't know 6 it. But, when I refreshed your recollection with 7 this document it made more sense, right? 8 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That 9 wasn't his testimony. 10 Q Did it make more sense after seeing 11 this? 12 A So, Peter, you asked me what is the 13 general definition of a Settlement Agreement? 14 Q Yes. 15 A I do not know what's a general legal 16 definition of it. 17 Q Okay. 18 A If you say, The Settlement Agreement, 19 referring to this document, then I will 20 understand, yes. You have to show me that 21 document. 22 Q Okay. 23 A So, that is why I was answering this 24 way. 0230 1 Lin 2 Q So, before when I asked you, like five 3 minutes ago, and, if you want, we could have the 4 court reporter read the question back, you said 5 you answered, you didn't know what a settlement 6 agreement was -- 7 MS. PARK: Objection. 8 Mischaracterizing his testimony. 9 MR. LINDNER: Marian, can you read 10 back -- 11 MS. PARK: Move on. 12 MR. LINDNER: Can you read back -- 13 MS. PARK: Move on. 14 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, your objection 15 is noted. Please, read back my question 16 about the Settlement Agreement. It was 17 about five minutes ago. 18 (Record read) 19 A So, you were asking what is a Settlement 20 Agreement. So, If I understood it wrong, I 21 understood it as, in general, what is a Settlement 22 Agreement. I do not know what's a definition. If 23 you refer to the Exhibit 1, these things called 24 Settlement Agreements? I said, yeah, I recall 0231 1 Lin 2 seeing that. 3 Q So, if you were to reask this question, 4 if I were to say -- Let's say we start afresh and 5 I said: Qing, I have a document here that's 6 called Exhibit 2, and it's an Amended Complaint, 7 and it starts off with Paragraph 1 on the nature 8 of the action. It says: This is an action for 9 breach of a Settlement Agreement, and if I were to 10 ask you now, do you understand what that means, 11 how would you answer? 12 A Breach the Settlement Agreement you had 13 with American Express? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Yes, you do? 17 A Yes. 18 Q At an earlier point you didn't 19 understand; is that true? 20 A Yes. 21 Q By talking back and forth and showing 22 you Exhibit 1 you understood it; right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q I point it out only because Ms. Park 0232 1 Lin 2 used an objection, which was called, "Asked and 3 answered." It's like if I ask you what's the 4 answer and you said; I don't know, and then I 5 said: What's the answer, and you said: I don't 6 know. That would be, "asked and answered." You 7 already answered it. I wasn't trying to badger 8 you. I was just trying to move along and give you 9 additional information so that you -- 10 MS. PARK: Ask him a question. 11 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, you have been 12 warned. 13 Q I'm trying to give you additional 14 information so that you could say it. So, 15 sometimes "asked and answered" is true, but 16 sometimes, you know, you are a smart guy, I'm a 17 smart guy, and we can learn on the spot. Did you 18 learn something by having me show you Exhibit 1 in 19 reference to Exhibit 2? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 21 A I don't feel that. 22 Q Why did you change your answer from not 23 understanding the breach of a Settlement Agreement 24 to understanding it now? 0233 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. You're 3 mischaracterizing his testimony. 4 Q Do you understand what an action for a 5 breach of a Settlement Agreement means? 6 MS. PARK: Let the record reflect Mr. 7 Lindner appears to be reading or quoting 8 from a portion of his amended Complaint. 9 MR. LINDNER: That's correct. 10 Otherwise known as Exhibit 2. 11 Q Do you understand the first phrase in 12 sentence 1 of Exhibit 2? You could read it out 13 loud. 14 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, we stipulate 15 that you are claiming that American Express 16 and Mr. Lin breached your Settlement 17 Agreement. Okay, let's move on. 18 MR. LINDNER: Does he understand it? 19 MS. PARK: Does he understand that 20 this is what you are claiming. 21 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, I understand 22 you answer every question. 23 MS. PARK: No, we stipulated that that 24 is what you are claiming. 0234 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: I understand it, but 3 please, I'd like an answer from Qing. 4 Q Do you understand it? 5 A I understand it. 6 Q Thank you very much. And you are not 7 just saying that because Ms. Park said it, you 8 truly understand it; right? 9 A I recall that before lunch you asked me 10 what are you suing me for? 11 MS. PARK: Wait -- 12 A I mentioned that you were complaining 13 about me violated the agreement between you and 14 American Express. 15 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, you asked, "Do 16 you know what this case is about?" And he 17 said, "Roughly." And you said, "Why don't 18 you tell me what you know." Mr. Lin said, 19 "You complained about me breaching your 20 agreement by giving a back reference about 21 you." Asked and answered. 22 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, please, the 23 court reporter can only handle one person 24 at a time -- 0235 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Because you keep talking 3 over me. 4 MR. LINDNER: And I was speaking here 5 and I don't -- I mean, maybe we need your 6 speeches and they are certainly delightful 7 but not for me. So, one at a time. 8 MS. PARK: Ask a question. 9 MR. LINDNER: I need to get an answer 10 from Qing. 11 MS. PARK: Ask a question. 12 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, you have cut 13 me off again by saying, "Ask a question." 14 I wish you wouldn't do that. 15 A Peter, the question was, do I learn 16 something -- 17 Q Yes? 18 A -- by what you said. I say, no, because 19 I think what could happen here is I probably 20 misunderstood your question, in terms of what is 21 generally a Settlement Agreement, or what is the 22 agreement you referred to. So, that's it. 23 Q Sometimes learning comes in small bits. 24 So, now we will go to Number 6. 0236 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Which document are you 3 referring to? 4 A Which document? There are two documents 5 - 6 MR. LINDNER: I know we are going to 7 have three documents. This is fun. This 8 is document Number 3 and there are only two 9 more left. There are only two more left. 10 So that will be pleasant for you two to 11 realize. 12 Q It says -- 13 A Number 3, yes. 14 Q Document Number 3, item Number 46. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Alright. Plaintiff's claims are barred 17 by his breach of the agreement prior to any 18 alleged breach of agreement -- alleged breach by 19 defendants upon which we've sought. I'm going to 20 reread this question and ask you if you understand 21 it. I'm going to say, Peter's claims are stopped 22 by Peter's breach of the agreement, prior to any 23 breach by Qing. Do you understand that? 24 A Not quite. Your statement is kind of 0237 1 Lin 2 convoluted. 3 Q It is convoluted but that's why they pay 4 the lawyers the big bucks. So, can you tease any 5 information out of that? 6 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 7 A No. Reading this, I cannot understand. 8 Q So, you don't -- Do you have any factual 9 basis for saying that I violated the agreement 10 before you violated the agreement, if indeed you 11 did violate the agreement? Maybe you didn't 12 violate the agreement but this says that Peter 13 violated the agreement before this time. 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 15 A I understand what you said. 16 Q Do you have any facts that says that I 17 violated the Settlement Agreement? 18 A I do not know how this linked to this 19 paragraph 46 here. 20 Q I will try to explain it. We had a 21 Settlement Agreement, American Express and I, and 22 it wasn't binding on American Express, it wasn't 23 binding on me, it is binding on both of us. So, 24 for instance, one of the provisions in there is 0238 1 Lin 2 that it shouldn't be published. Now, you can't 3 say this went on. There is a secrecy clause in 4 it. Do you understand that? 5 A So far, what you said, yes. 6 Q Do you want to see what clause stops you 7 or me from talking about it or do you accept the 8 fact that there is a secrecy clause in the 9 agreement? 10 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, he has 11 testified he has never seen the agreement. 12 Why are you asking him to testify about a 13 document he has never seen. 14 Q Did you ever see paragraph 13 of 15 Document 1, the one where you were instructed and 16 directed -- 17 MS. PARK: With the exception he may 18 have seen it through counsel. All your 19 questions should be with the exception of 20 anything he may have seen in consultation 21 with me. 22 A So, which document do I have seen? 23 Q The document that was a Settlement 24 Agreement, Exhibit 1. 0239 1 Lin 2 A So, I have answered that I have not seen 3 it before. 4 Q You've not seen it before. Okay, so 5 let's take a quick look at it. It stops American 6 Express from talking about me. 7 MR. LINDNER: Objection to form. 8 Q So, did you remember reading paragraph 9 13? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Asked 11 and answered. 12 Q Do you remember reading it? 13 A Today? 14 Q Today. 15 A In front of you? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you recall that that was saying that 19 seven (sic) people, a certain number of people, 20 should not say anything to a Non-American Express 21 employee? 22 MR. LINDNER: Objection to form. 23 Q Do you understand that? 24 A Yes. 0240 1 Lin 2 Q That would be a stipulation on American 3 Express but there also were restrictions upon 4 Peter Lindner, upon me, okay? And I also could 5 not talk about that agreement. So, I am alleging 6 in my suit that you violated the agreement, 7 paragraph 13, and now the question is, did I beat 8 you to the punch? Did I violate the agreement 9 before you violated the agreement? Even if you 10 say you didn't violate it, you're saying: In any 11 case did I violate the agreement? Do you have any 12 facts that say that I violated the agreement? 13 A I do not know. I don't know your 14 statement so which one you violate. I have not 15 seen agreement before today. 16 Q Right. So, you are not aware of any 17 violation by me of the agreement? 18 A I do not know. 19 Q You do now know. That is what I mean by 20 not aware. 21 MS. PARK: Objection. 22 Q Maybe I violated it, maybe I didn't, but 23 I'm asking, are you aware of a violation by me? 24 A I do not know. 0241 1 Lin 2 Q So you don't, correct? 3 MS. PARK: Asked and answered. Move 4 on. 5 Q He nodded his head. I wish to have his 6 answer on the record. 7 A I said, "I do not know." 8 MR. LINDNER: I'm sorry, I didn't hear 9 what you said, Qing. 10 THE WITNESS: I said it many times. 11 MR. LINDNER: That's good. 12 Q Now, it says, "The seventh affirmative 13 defense is the Complaint is barred, in part, by 14 the doctrine Res Judicata. I don't even know if I 15 pronounced it right. Do you know what this means? 16 A Do I know what this means? 17 Q At all? 18 A No. 19 Q No. So, do you have any factual basis 20 for asserting it? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 Q Do you have any factual basis for 23 saying -- For instance, in the prior question I 24 asked you, for instance, if you said: I heard 0242 1 Lin 2 Peter talking about this Settlement Agreement a 3 year after it happened. That would be a factual 4 basis for saying that I violated the agreement. 5 You know, if you heard such a conversation. If 6 somebody said: Hey, do you see this number? This 7 is how much money Peter made from the Settlement 8 Agreement, and that happened, you know, a month or 9 two after the agreement. That would be a prior 10 violation. 11 So, I'm asking on this one, without the 12 legal terminology, and I have a document which 13 explains what it is, but Res Judicata means it has 14 already been tried in court. In other words, we 15 went to a court, this whole issue came up and it 16 was settled in court. Does that make sense? 17 A Not quite. 18 Q If you go to court and you settle a 19 matter, you cannot go to a different court and 20 open up the same matter. Once it's settled, 21 that's it. Does that make sense? 22 A I understand what you said, yes. 23 Q That, as I understand it, is what Res 24 Judicata means, is that it's already been tried in 0243 1 Lin 2 court. So, do you feel, your own personal 3 knowledge, have you gone through this whole 4 process in court already? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 6 A I don't understand what you say. How 7 this relate to 47, because I do not understand 47 8 or what you just said. 9 Q Suppose this case is finished and you 10 win, or I win, or it is dismissed or whatever, 11 okay, and then five years from now I say: You 12 know what Qing did in 2005, I'm going to bring it 13 up in the court. The court would throw it out 14 because they would say, under the doctrine of Res 15 Judicata, it had already been tried in 2009, and 16 once it has been settled, that's it. You know, 17 you can't keep going back with the same thing. 18 You understand that, right? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 A What you said as it relates here. 21 Q And you understand you are in court now. 22 So, I'm asking, have you been in court previously 23 on this issue? 24 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 0244 1 Lin 2 A On what issue? 3 Q The alleged breach of the Settlement 4 Agreement. Have you been in court on this issue? 5 A On this particular case. 6 Q Yes, on Lindner versus American Express 7 and Qing Lin, have you been in court before on 8 that? 9 A No. 10 Q So, my interpretation of what you just 11 said to no, means there is no fact in your 12 possession that would say that you have been in 13 court; correct? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That 15 wasn't his testimony. 16 Q What is your testimony, Qing? 17 A So, you are asking me whether I have 18 been in a courthouse -- 19 Q Yes. 20 A -- regarding to this particular case 21 which we are talking about -- 22 Q Exactly. 23 A Right? My answer is: No, I have not 24 been in any courthouse for this particular case. 0245 1 Lin 2 Q And if you were, you would probably 3 remember it, right? 4 A Yes. 5 MR. LINDNER: That's what I'm asking. 6 I think it is 4:00 o'clock. It's time for 7 a break. 8 MS. PARK: I'll note for the record 9 that Mr. Lindner has been initiating all 10 the breaks in this case. We are prepared 11 to continue. 12 MR. LINDNER: That is good. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't need a break. 14 MR. LINDNER: Well, actually, I do. 15 I'd like to say we are going to be off the 16 record. 17 MS. PARK: Note for the record that I 18 object to any further breaks. How long are 19 we breaking for, on the record? 20 MR. LINDNER: I think we are already 21 off the record. Are we off the record? 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: No, not yet. 23 MS. PARK: How long are we breaking? 24 MR. LINDNER: It's seven minutes after 0246 1 Lin 2 4:00 and we will start again at 4:15. 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the 4 record. This ends tape number 3. We are 5 off the record at 4:07. 6 (Recess taken.) 7 Stand by: This begins tape number 4 8 in the deposition of Qing Lin. We are on 9 the record at 4:30. 10 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much, 11 Dmitry. I want to talk a little bit -- I'd 12 like to cover some other topics. Maybe we 13 have done it before but I hope you will 14 indulge me. 15 Q Has Fisher Jordan ever been given a 16 contract by American Express, to your knowledge? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you know approximately when? 19 A I do not know. So, I know some 20 contracts. I do not know all the contracts. 21 Q I don't know any contracts. Do you know 22 of any contracts? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Can you name which ones you do remember? 0247 1 Lin 2 A I can remember one, which happens in my 3 organization, which is December of 2007. 4 Q Without revealing proprietary 5 information, can you reveal roughly what the 6 subject was about? 7 A The subject is about designing a system 8 to review customer information. 9 Q What kind of customer information? 10 Again, without revealing proprietary information? 11 A The business information of the 12 customer. 13 Q In other words, for the commercial side 14 of the house as opposed to the -- 15 A The small business side of the house. 16 Q For the small business side of the 17 house? 18 A Yes. And the customer behavior 19 information of our American Express product. 20 Q Which product was that? 21 A American Express products. 22 Q Products, a whole bunch of them? 23 A Yes. 24 Q When you talk products you mean like the 0248 1 Lin 2 Optima Card, the Gold Card, the Green Card, things 3 like that; is that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Is that the first contact that you can 6 recall with Fisher Jordan? 7 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 8 A Sorry. 9 Q Do you recall an earlier contract? 10 A From my organization? With my 11 organization? 12 Q Yes, for instance. 13 A No. 14 Q How about for a different organization 15 within American Express? 16 A I do not know. 17 Q So, that's the earliest one you recall? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Inside or outside your organization; is 20 that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now, do you have the ability, do you 23 have signing authority? That's a term of art. If 24 I say you have signing authority, do you feel you 0249 1 Lin 2 can answer that question? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 A I do not know what do you mean signing 5 authority. 6 Q Let me clarify it. Can you determine 7 who gets a contract from American Express? 8 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 9 answered. 10 MR. LINDNER: Noted. Please answer. 11 A If I get the contract meaning? 12 Q Can you decide to give a contract to an 13 organization? 14 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 15 answered. 16 A Can I restate the question to see if it 17 is consistent with your question? 18 Q Sure? 19 A Can I decide who to engage for some 20 American Express activity? Is that what you mean? 21 Q That's very well said, yes. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Is that authority limited in any 24 way? 0250 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Is there a number below which you have a 4 lot of authority and above which you might have no 5 authority? In other words, how is the authority 6 limited? 7 A The length and amount of dollar awarded 8 for engagement is limited. 9 Q Can you inform me what those parameters 10 are? 11 A I do not remember. 12 Q Roughly? 13 A Roughly, I think, below I would say 14 $25,000 -- $50,000 I can decide. I have signing 15 power. So, I can sign it. 16 Q That's what I meant by signing 17 authority. 18 A Yes, I can approve it. 19 Q I should have said signing power. And 20 the length? 21 A Probably the dollar is more important. 22 So, I do not recall. 23 Q But it's probably more like a one month 24 contractor or five month contract. Would that be 0251 1 Lin 2 within your signing authority? 3 A So, if someone is willing to work for 4 five months for say, $1,000, I think, it would be 5 fine. 6 Q Sometimes you get what you pay for. But 7 you are saying basically $50,000 to do a project 8 or $25,000? 9 A I don't remember, because my practice is 10 always checked. Management checks always the 11 policy. So, I don't remember, off the top of my 12 head. 13 Q Do you have a document that you use to 14 check on? 15 A No, typically I called up Finance 16 Department to see because they facilitate the 17 documents. 18 Q And they have a document that contains 19 it? 20 A Yes. 21 MR. LINDNER: And has that document 22 been produced, Ms. Park, that Qing is 23 referring to? 24 MS. PARK: I don't know. 0252 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: Well, Ms. Park, if any 3 of the documents I asked for -- 4 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, every document 5 you have asked for, pursuant to Party 6 Document Request, have been answered and 7 all responsive documents have been 8 provided. 9 MR. LINDNER: I appreciate that but I 10 didn't finish my sentence. I'd appreciate 11 if you didn't cut me off. 12 MS. PARK: I've a standing objection, 13 I'm not producing any more records, period. 14 MR. LINDNER: I understand what you 15 said but let me finish, if I may. If any 16 documents I asked for, and to which Mr. Lin 17 has made a reference have not been 18 produced, I'm making a demand that they 19 be -- 20 MS. PARK: And that's why you're not 21 getting anymore records. 22 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, you just 23 cut -- 24 MS. PARK: Demand noted. 0253 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: -- me off again. 3 MS. PARK: Demand noted. Demand 4 noted. Demand noted. Go on. 5 MR. LINDNER: I'm going to say it 6 again, because I don't want to be cut off, 7 if I may, and at one point I asked you 8 whether you have a document and you said: 9 Look it up yourself. I'm not sure of the 10 exact words, so that is why I'm saying it 11 now. And, please, don't interrupt me. If 12 you want to interrupt me, wait until I'm 13 finished, then say, I would have 14 interrupted you and this is my objection. 15 What I'm saying is: If any document I ask 16 for, and to which Qing has made a 17 reference, and they have not been produced, 18 I'm making a demand that they be produced. 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Demand noted. 20 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. 21 Q Now, if there are larger contracts can 22 you approve them, over 50,000? 23 A It requires higher management approval. 24 I don't remember the threshold. 0254 1 Lin 2 Q Threshold, t-h-r-e-s-h-o-l-d. So, you 3 would sign a larger contract but it needs 4 additional signatures too. Is that your 5 understanding? 6 A It needs additional signature from 7 higher level and from Finance Department. 8 Q And from the Finance Department? 9 A Yes. 10 Q But you could be the one who initiated 11 or it could be your project, right? Or would it 12 now be the other person's project or the Finance 13 Department? How does that work? 14 A It is based on business needs. I can 15 propose an engagement and it's beyond my approval 16 limit. 17 Q Yes? 18 A My supervisor has to agree and decide 19 on. 20 Q Alright. And if, let's say, it is that 21 larger amount and he agrees with it, is it your 22 project or is it his project? 23 A It is American Express Project. I do 24 not know if it is my project or his project. So, 0255 1 Lin 2 I do not understand your question. 3 Q Well, if somebody said what projects 4 have you -- 5 A It's the nature of the business. So, it 6 depends on -- 7 Q You both can claim credit for it, I 8 guess? 9 A I do not know what do you mean, claim 10 credit. It is the nature of business. It's a 11 business activity. Specific scope of the project. 12 So, I do not understand what you mean, if it's my 13 project or my boss's project. 14 Q Let me try to narrow it down. Did you 15 have signing power in 2005 and 2006? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you have an approximate range for 18 what dollar amount you had back then? 19 A I do not remember specific. It would be 20 the same. 21 Q Roughly the same? 22 A Yes. 23 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. I 24 appreciate that you gave an approximate 0256 1 Lin 2 answer. 3 Q Now, do you also have the authority to 4 delay a project? 5 A That is a business decision. 6 Q Yes. 7 A Not necessarily made by me. It could be 8 made by people in my team. It could be made by 9 me. It could be made by my supervisors. 10 Q Okay. So, you do have the authority to 11 delay it but so does that people on the teams 12 under you and do some of the people over you? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So, are you saying that anyone of them 15 can delay it -- 16 A It is a business decision we typically 17 make together. 18 Q A collective decision? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So, if a person says: I wish to delay 21 it, who makes the decision then whether it gets 22 delayed or not? 23 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 24 A I do not know. What do you mean "Who 0257 1 Lin 2 makes decision?" 3 Q Can you, for instance, delay a project? 4 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 5 answered. 6 A Yes, it was business rationale. So, 7 give me a more specific question because you are 8 asking me a hypothetical situation. I do not know 9 the context. So, I have to give you a general 10 answer. 11 Q Well, has Fisher Jordan -- You said 12 Fisher Jordan had a contract with you in 13 December 2007, correct? 14 A It had engagement doing some project 15 with me starting December 2007. 16 Q Starting December 2007? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Prior to that, as best you can recall, 19 you didn't have any contracts with them, right? 20 By engagements you mean contracts, right? 21 A Me, meaning Qing Lin, or me meaning 22 what? I know your -- 23 Q Whatever group that you are the head of. 24 You are the senior VP and chief credit -- of Open, 0258 1 Lin 2 but were you that in 2005? 3 A No. 4 Q What was your title in 2005? 5 A Senior Vice-President, Chief Credit 6 Officer, Institutional Risk Management. 7 Q That's another thing I didn't get. 8 Senior VP and Chief Credit Risk -- 9 A No, Chief Credit Officer. 10 Q Chief Credit Officer -- 11 A Institutional Risk. 12 Q Wow. Institutional Risk. And that was 13 in 2005? 14 A That's in 2005, yes. 15 Q So, do you know if Fisher Jordan had any 16 projects or engagements in 2005 with American 17 Express? 18 A I do not know. 19 Q Do you know if they proposed any 20 projects in 2005? 21 A I do not know. 22 Q Do you have an office or Contract 23 Department or Legal Department or a Finance 24 Department that keeps track of projects by 0259 1 Lin 2 vendors? 3 A I think so, yes. 4 Q Yes. And would they have a list of only 5 completed projects or also initiated or proposed 6 projects? 7 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 8 A I'm not familiar with what is keep 9 track. Meaning, it is not my responsibility. So, 10 I do not know how they track. 11 Q But do you ever report to them? Do you 12 ever tell them the project is over, the project 13 has began or I assigned it, or anything like that? 14 A If I involve the Finance Department? 15 Q Yes? 16 A The paperwork goes through them and the 17 department's -- I think it is Global Procurement 18 and they probably have the records. 19 Q So, one of the Finance Departments or 20 one of their allies, one of their people in their 21 American Express chain will have a document on 22 contracts? 23 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 24 Q As best you know? 0260 1 Lin 2 A So, you are asking whether American 3 Express, as a company, has the documents, have all 4 records of which consults be engaged? 5 Q Yes, that's what I'm asking? 6 A I believe so. 7 MR. LINDNER: I appreciate that you 8 restated it. I'd like to know if that 9 particular document, relating to Fisher 10 Jordan contracts, have been produced, 11 Ms. Park? 12 MS. PARK: No. 13 MR. LINDNER: It has not. I'd like to 14 make a demand that they be produced. 15 MS. PARK: Demand all you want. You 16 are not getting any more records. 17 MR. LINDNER: Although I am a little 18 mystified how I could have known it prior 19 to deposing Qing. In fact, I think, 20 Ms. Park, you asked me some questions and 21 -- 22 MS. PARK: Move on. 23 MR. LINDNER: -- I went and got the 24 documents for you. Do you recall that? 0261 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: You were ordered by the 3 judge to produce records and those were the 4 only records you produced. Move on. 5 MR. LINDNER: I believe I produced 6 them voluntarily. 7 MS. PARK: Move on. 8 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, I'd appreciate 9 it if you would stop saying, "Move on." 10 Q So, we have established that there is a 11 set of documents somewhere in American Express 12 that would talk about all the vendors and have the 13 projects, at least for money being spent. 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That 15 mischaracterizes his testimony. 16 A I don't quite understand your statement. 17 Q Well, suppose you have a project that 18 cost $25,000.00 and you approve it, would there be 19 a document that would say, Qing Lin approved such 20 and such a project on such and such a date that 21 cost such and such amount and this is what it 22 does. This it the title of the project? 23 A I would think so. 24 MR. LINDNER: That's what I was asking 0262 1 Lin 2 you and that's the type of document that I 3 wanted to have that list. Thank you very 4 much. 5 Q Now, if a project is going on and you 6 feel that you wish to cancel it, you have the 7 authority to cancel projects? 8 A So, I do not know because I have not 9 done it before. Contracts involve both sides. 10 So, I don't know whether I can single handily 11 cancel a project or not. So, I have not done it 12 before, so I do not know. 13 MR. LINDNER: You don't have to know. 14 I accept that, that's fine. 15 Q We have established you can award 16 contracts. We established you have the signing 17 power, right? 18 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 19 Q You have the signing power to approve 20 contracts, correct? 21 A I can approve. 22 Q You can approve. Thank you. There are 23 probably other projects, I'm going to ask you, 24 that you can only recommend. Are there such 0263 1 Lin 2 projects? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 A Restate your question. I don't quite 5 fully understand. 6 Q You have projects where, instead of 7 signing for it or having the signing power, that 8 you can recommend that a project go forward and 9 that's it. You can recommend it but you can't 10 sign for it? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Thank you. And, if you recommend it, 13 who would then sign for it? 14 A So, if it is related to my 15 responsibility -- 16 Q Yes? 17 A -- my supervisor has to sign it, Finance 18 Department has to sign it. 19 Q And your supervisor is? 20 MS. PARK: During what period? 21 MR. LINDNER: Qing said that his 22 supervisor -- So, I'll let him answer what 23 he said. 24 A Is meaning now? 0264 1 Lin 2 Q Yes. 3 A Ash Gupta. 4 Q How about in 2005, who was your 5 supervisor then? 6 A Ash Gupta. 7 Q If Ash Gupta was then and Ash Gupta is 8 now, did you have a different supervisor in 9 between? 10 A No. 11 MR. LINDNER: So, I think it's fair to 12 say that we just went a long way for 13 nothing, that when I asked if your 14 supervisor would sign it and then Ms. Park 15 said, "Well, it depends what time frame." 16 So, we established now it would be Ash, and 17 2005 it would Ash, and in between it would 18 Ash. That's a span of four years. I just 19 wanted to get that. 20 Q When you make a recommendation, is it 21 verbal or is it in writing? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 23 A It could be either. 24 Q It could be either. Thank you. So, 0265 1 Lin 2 have you ever done a recommendation in writing? 3 A I do not remember. 4 Q Have you ever made a recommendation 5 verbally? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Have you ever delayed something in 8 writing? 9 A Delay -- what is something? 10 Q Well, a project, an engagement? 11 A Of a consultant? 12 Q Yes. 13 A I don't think so. I don't remember. I 14 don't think so. 15 Q Have you ever delayed a project of a 16 consultant verbally? 17 A To answer your question, I don't think 18 so. The project could be delayed because Finance 19 don't have the money or it could be anything. Do 20 I propose the delay? I do not remember I propose 21 any delays. 22 Q Maybe you are on vacation, or maybe one 23 of your people were out, or maybe there's some big 24 thing that happened all of a sudden. So, you'd 0266 1 Lin 2 say, I'd like to delay this by a day, by a week, 3 or month, or something? Have you ever done that? 4 Have you ever changed the date of a project? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Asked 6 and answered. He said he doesn't remember 7 having proposed any delay. 8 A So, Peter -- 9 Q Yes. 10 A Project start is not a firm start, 11 January 1st, that's the date. 12 Q Correct. 13 A There could be agreements, there could 14 be preparation period, and the starting date is 15 not clear cut. I could not answer the question 16 and say whether a delay is a day or two or 17 something. I do not remember ever saying: Delay 18 this project for six months, not doing it. 19 Q But can you recall -- I believe that. 20 But can you recall, let's say, delaying it by a 21 day or two. Saying: Hey, instead of starting 22 Wednesday, we'll start on Thursday or -- 23 A I don't remember. It could happen. 24 Q It could happen. 0267 1 Lin 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q But would you have any documents that 4 indicate that, that would refresh your memory? 5 A So, are you asking, to decide to delay a 6 project for one day or two, do I have a document I 7 have to recall that? The answer is no. 8 Q So, you are saying you don't recall 9 that, or you don't have such a document, or you 10 can't recall if you have such a document? 11 A I thought your question is, to delay a 12 project by a day or two -- 13 Q Yes? 14 A -- do I need a document or not? My 15 answer is, not -- 16 Q But would you, for instance, send out an 17 e-mail that says: We were going to have the 18 meeting at such and such a date but instead we 19 will have it on Monday? You've never done that? 20 A That could happen. My associate in my 21 office arrange meetings based on my schedule. So, 22 I don't micro manage that at work. 23 Q So, would you just have them review -- 24 A Rescheduling meetings happen every other 0268 1 Lin 2 day. 3 Q I believe it. 4 A So, you are asking me -- At that level, 5 I just do not know. 6 Q So, how many assistants do you have? 7 A How many -- 8 Q Assistants. 9 A Okay, assistants. 10 Q Didn't you say you had an assistant who 11 would arrange a schedule, you know, micro-manage? 12 A Yep. 13 Q So, how many -- 14 A One. 15 Q What is that person's name? 16 A Tessa. 17 Q How do you spell that? 18 A T-e-s-s-a. 19 Q What is her last name? 20 A Alert, A-l-e-r-t. 21 Q A-l-e-r-t. What is her telephone 22 number? Do you know offhand? 23 A I'm sorry? What's my number or -- 24 MS. PARK: I'm directing you not to 0269 1 Lin 2 provide that. I'm not giving you her 3 telephone number. Put it in a formal 4 request. 5 MR. LINDNER: We will note again that 6 Ms. Park refused to give an answer but she 7 is asking that I ask the judge for it. You 8 mean a request to you or a request to the 9 judge? 10 MS. PARK: Make a request to me and I 11 will put a formal objection and denial of 12 your request. 13 MR. LINDNER: Well, then you mean 14 request it to the judge because you are 15 saying already that you are going to deny 16 it, right. 17 MS. PARK: Sure. 18 Q How long has Tessa worked for you? 19 A 10 -- 11 years. 20 Q So, she worked with you during the 2005 21 period, during the year of 2005, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And she would set up appointments for 24 you, right? 0270 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q So, Lotus Notes has a calendar, if I 4 recall it? Is that right? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And you can schedule meetings on that 7 calendar, correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Now, if a meeting is scheduled, is that 10 something you would do or you would delegate that 11 to Tessa? 12 A I would delegate it to Tessa. 13 Q So, if somebody wanted to see you, would 14 they just go up to see you or would they go to 15 Tessa to schedule a time? How does it work? 16 A Both ways. 17 Q Both ways. When Fisher Jordan, when 18 Boaz talked to you in 2005 about me, do you recall 19 if he scheduled a meeting or whether he just came 20 up to you? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 Mischaracterizing his testimony. 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Do you remember meeting with Boaz? 0271 1 Lin 2 A During 2005? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Before the lunch break you said that you 6 gave him "Any information?" 7 A About you? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you recall at that day whether that 11 was a meeting scheduled through Tessa or whether 12 it was just a spontaneous thing where he just 13 showed up, or called you, or something like that? 14 MS. PARK: Objection. 15 Mischaracterizing his testimony. 16 Q How would you characterize it, Qing? 17 A I'm not sure. I don't know. Ask your 18 question again. 19 Q How did Boaz come to meet you? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. No 21 testimony that he met with Boaz. 22 Q Did you meet with Boaz? 23 A Yes. 24 Q How did he meet you? 0272 1 Lin 2 A We had lunch together. 3 Q And do you remember where that was? 4 A I do not remember. 5 Q That's okay. It's four years ago. 6 A Do you want -- 7 Q And you were going to say: Do I want -- 8 A No, ask your question. 9 Q So, lunch would be the type of thing 10 that Tessa would schedule, correct? 11 A Sometimes she does. Sometimes it's just 12 sometimes we bump into each other and say, "Hey, 13 let's go to lunch." 14 Q Would it refresh your memory if you were 15 to look at Tessa's schedule for that day to see if 16 indeed Boaz and you met and she would put down, 17 Having lunch? 18 A I do not remember which date. 19 MR. LINDNER: I think I would like to 20 request the schedule that Tessa keeps to 21 see if indeed there is an entry of having 22 lunch with Boaz sometime in 2005. 23 MS. PARK: I'll state for the record 24 that there is no document and Mr. Lin's 0273 1 Lin 2 schedule was already checked. 3 MR. LINDNER: Can you tell me who 4 checked it, Ms. Park? 5 MS. PARK: No. 6 Q Qing, did you check your records to see 7 if you met with Boaz on that day? 8 MS. PARK: On what date? 9 Q In 2005? 10 A What records? 11 Q The Lotus Notes Calendar. You have 12 access to it, right? It's not just her having 13 access. You both have access to that record, 14 correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And she can schedule you or not 17 schedule, correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And you can, yourself, change it if you 20 wish? Do you ever change things or you are really 21 a hands-off manager and you never touch your 22 schedule? 23 A Sometimes I do. 24 Q Sometimes you do? 0274 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q So, you could have put an entry there or 4 she could have? You could have put it there or 5 removed but, I'm asking you in particular, did you 6 check to see whether you met Boaz and whether it 7 was recorded on the calendar? Did you check your 8 calendar, your Lotus Notes Calendar, to see if you 9 met with him in 2005 for lunch? 10 A Do I check now? Did I check it in 2005? 11 Do -- 12 Q Yes. Since January of 2005, now it is 13 January of 2009. During that time have you ever 14 looked at the calendar to find out if you had a 15 meeting with Boaz? 16 A I do not remember. 17 Q Ms. Park asserts that the calendar has 18 been checked. So, do you know who could have 19 checked it? 20 A I do not know. 21 Q If I told you one of the lawyers checked 22 it, would you be surprised? 23 A It could happen. It's company data. 24 Company information. 0275 1 Lin 2 Q So, it's not your personal -- 3 A It's not my personal information. 4 MR. LINDNER: I understand. I'd like 5 to put in a request, I'd like to know which 6 group did the checking of Qing Lin's 7 calendar and whether that was a data 8 security team, a legal team, or Tessa. 9 Qing Lin just stated it wasn't him. 10 Q Now, when Fisher Jordan had a project in 11 2007, do you know if you made a recommendation for 12 that project or you approved the project? 13 A I approved the project. 14 Q Thank you. And to your knowledge, and 15 we could check this, that was the first project 16 that you approved, and maybe even the first 17 project that Fisher Jordan had with American 18 Express? Is that the best of your knowledge? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. What 20 are you asking him? You've got three 21 different questions. 22 Q Is it to the best of your knowledge that 23 this December 2007 project of Fisher Jordan was, 24 to the best of your knowledge, the first project 0276 1 Lin 2 that Fisher Jordan had with Amex? 3 A I do not know. 4 Q Did you meet frequently with Boaz? 5 A What do you mean frequently? 6 Q How often did you meet with Boaz in 7 2005? 8 A Three or four times. 9 Q In the year? 10 A In the year. 11 Q So that's not too often. And one of 12 those times was when he talked about me, correct? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That 14 wasn't his testimony. 15 MR. LINDNER: Well, I'll have to check 16 what his testimony is, but I don't want to 17 have to go back and waste time to have the 18 court reporter find out exactly what he 19 said. So, maybe you can tell us -- 20 Q You met three or four times with Boaz in 21 2005, correct? 22 A Yes. I don't recall exact time. 23 Q But are there ways to find out? 24 A Including hallway, kind of saw each 0277 1 Lin 2 other, say, "Hi?" 3 Q Yes? 4 A I do not know. 5 Q Well, for instance -- I have a question: 6 Do you wear badges at American Express? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you get in through the doors by using 9 the badges? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now, some places other people can hold 12 open the door for you and it will not be recorded 13 whether you went through that door or not, but 14 some places it will be recorded. Do you happen to 15 know what type of system American Express has with 16 regard to the badges? 17 A I have to use the badge to enter the 18 building. 19 Q Right, to enter to building. But how 20 about to get to a particular floor. 21 A I have to use the badge to open the door 22 on the floor. 23 Q So, when you get out of the elevator you 24 are locked in, unless you use your badge to get -- 0278 1 Lin 2 A Clarify which time frame? 3 Q 2005? 4 A Yes. 5 Q To get into your office, do you need 6 your badge? 7 A No. 8 Q Does it have a lock on it? 9 A Yes. 10 Q If you were going with another person, 11 would both of you have to use your badges or only 12 one of you need to use the badge? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 14 A So -- 15 Q If you are going with a visitor, does 16 the visitor have a badge that they would -- For 17 instance, there is a turn-style at American 18 Express, isn't there? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Can two people go through that 21 turn-style at the same time? 22 A No. 23 Q Can you go through the turn-style 24 without a badge? 0279 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q So, anybody could leave without a badge, 4 right? 5 A No. 6 Q I thought that you said, "yes," and then 7 "no." So, which is it? In other words, suppose 8 somebody had a badge and then lost it and now they 9 wish to leave through the turn-style, would they 10 be able to do it without the badge? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. Some places you can't, you have 13 to get the guard to let you through. 14 A Yes, that's what I'm saying. Can 15 someone do that? My answer is, yes. 16 Q That would be using the guard to 17 override the system? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So, you cannot leave without either 20 using your badge or having the guard person let 21 you out, correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q So, in a similar way, can one get onto 24 the floor, on your floor, without a badge? 0280 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q One can? 4 A One can. 5 Q Because somebody could hold open the 6 door -- 7 A In the rush hour people come to work, 8 someone hold the door, five, six people can get 9 in. 10 Q I understand. Thank you very much. And 11 there would be no record of it? 12 A No. 13 MR. LINDNER: Thank you. They are 14 working on systems where there would be a 15 record. Anyhow, that's on the side. 16 Q So, now I'd like to go to the question 17 of when you -- Back in 1990 you applied to America 18 Express. You stated that you have documents, like 19 a resume, that you probably gave to somebody that 20 is somewhere in American Express, or at least it 21 was in 1990, whether it is there today -- Do you 22 know if they keep documents like that for 19 23 years? 24 A I do not know. 0281 1 Lin 2 Q Would it be fair to say that, if they 3 kept it, it would be called your personnel folder? 4 A I do not know what is personnel folder. 5 Q You have a bunch of people working for 6 you who are direct reports; correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you keep a folder on how they are 9 doing? Do you keep all their information in one 10 folder or is it spread out over several different 11 locations? 12 A I do not keep a folder. 13 Q Does anyone keep a folder? 14 A I do not know in what form. Human 15 Resource has records. 16 Q Human Resource records? 17 A Yes. 18 Q The question is: When you said, By what 19 form, can you explain what that means? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 21 A I do know what Human Resource has. So, 22 I don't personally keep documents of people -- 23 what you call personnel file. 24 Q But in some manifestation you are 0282 1 Lin 2 saying, for instance, it could be electronic, it 3 could be paper. I mean a hundred years ago they 4 had personnel files and they would say: Here is 5 when you were hired; here's how you did this year; 6 here's what your salary is. That would all be in 7 one document. Now, your finance information might 8 be one place, your photo might be in another place 9 but you are saying you do not know what form it 10 is? 11 A I do not know what form and where it is. 12 Q And where it is physically located? 13 A I do not know. 14 Q So, do they use the term personnel file 15 or personnel folder at American Express to talk 16 about the collection of data that they have on 17 themselves? 18 A People use different terms. I just want 19 to understand, when you say personnel file, what 20 do you mean? People could call it personnel file. 21 I do not know. 22 Q People at Amex? 23 A People use different -- 24 Q What term do they use at Amex. 0283 1 Lin 2 A Your employment history. I do not know. 3 It depends on the context. 4 Q Employment history, that would have -- 5 For instance, does (sic) every year you get a 6 review? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And where would they put that review? 9 A Human Resources have it. 10 Q And chances are that's what people are 11 talking about when they talk about our personnel 12 file, personnel folder? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 14 testified he doesn't know what it is 15 called. 16 A I do not know what -- 17 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, you don't have 18 to feed him the answers. 19 MS. PARK: I'm not. 20 MR. LINDNER: I think, if he doesn't 21 know, he can say that and I accept it. 22 A Let me state it, I do not know in which 23 form how Human Resource keep record of employees. 24 Q But you do know -- What do you know 0284 1 Lin 2 about the records? They keep records? 3 A They keep some records, yes. I do not 4 know what they keep or how they keep it. 5 Q Do you know, for instance, if they keep 6 records on you or above a certain level they do 7 not keep records? 8 A What do you mean, "keep records?" Of 9 course they know me as employee. They know my 10 title. They know what my responsibilities is, 11 yes. 12 Q Just like they would know, Tessa Alert. 13 They would know her title, her responsibilities? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. LINDNER: Do we have the personnel 16 file for Qing Lin, Ms. Park? 17 MS. PARK: I'm not answering that. 18 You have asked for that record and the 19 courts repeatedly denied that request. We 20 are not revisiting that issue. Move on. 21 MR. LINDNER: They have denied it. 22 But this time Qing was observing they do 23 have it in some format, maybe not the 24 format that I requested it. 0285 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: So what. You are not 3 getting any of his personnel records, 4 period. Move on. 5 MR. LINDNER: I'm requesting it. 6 MS. PARK: Request all you want. 7 MR. LINDNER: Please note that I'm 8 requesting it. Requesting for a document 9 that had not been produced but I'm making 10 the demand that they be produced and that 11 Qing has made a reference to it. 12 Q I was an employee of American Express 13 too and I probably have a folder there too. Would 14 you say that? 15 A I do not know. 16 Q Would it be unusual if I didn't have a 17 folder? 18 A I do not know. 19 Q So, you feel that there might be a whole 20 class of people at American Express who have no 21 personnel folders, but you are not one of them 22 cause you feel that you have a folder, and Tessa 23 has a folder, but there is this a large class of 24 people or a small class of people that do not have 0286 1 Lin 2 folders? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 Argumentative, and he just said he doesn't 5 know. 6 MR. LINDNER: We are finding the 7 answers. 8 A So, I do not know a folder. You 9 mentioned specifically a folder. So, I do not 10 know. 11 Q When I say, "Folder," I mean it 12 figuratively. Just like when you say, "A book." 13 When you say, "I'm reading a book,." It doesn't 14 have to be a book on a piece of paper. It could 15 be on a document, or an electronic device from 16 Sony, and it could be on the internet, but it is 17 still a book. I'm not trying to say it's 18 manifestation is on paper or that it is a file 19 folder, or that it's a folder in the Windows 20 Directory. 21 A So, Peter, you are asking me about 22 American Express Human Resource Record Keeping 23 Practice. 24 Q Right? 0287 1 Lin 2 A I have been telling you, I do not know 3 their practice. 4 Q Well, you don't know the details but do 5 you know whether everybody has information stored 6 at American Express? 7 A What do you mean, "Everybody has 8 information stored?" 9 Q Every other 70,000 employees? 10 A So, American Express must have some 11 record about every one of their employees. 12 Q That's what I'm saying? 13 A Yes. 14 Q For instance, tax information, right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Whether they are a citizen, or an 17 illegal alien, they would keep that information 18 because the government requires it, right? 19 A So, first, I don't know if American 20 Express can employ illegal aliens. 21 Q That's just my point because they 22 request documents from the person and those 23 documents prove that they are a citizen or they 24 have a Green Card; right? 0288 1 Lin 2 A That's HR process. 3 Q That's part of the HR process but if you 4 have interviewed people, where you have asked 5 them, Are you a legal resident of the United 6 States or do you have the ability to work here or 7 do have you a Social Security Card? You have 8 asked questions like that? Have you ever? 9 A I might have. 10 Q That's what I mean. So, I'm saying, 11 chances are it happens with everybody and I am in 12 that group too? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 14 A So, I don't know what your question is. 15 You are asking me some practice HR has. So, I 16 tell you I do not know. I don't know how to 17 answer your question anymore. 18 Q You could answer that, chances are, 19 everybody has a record or you could say, No. We 20 have a whole bunch of people we don't have records 21 for or could you say, We keep records but then we 22 destroy them all after so many years. I don't 23 know. 24 A I have no knowledge on that aspect. 0289 1 Lin 2 Q But you do have a knowledge that, as an 3 employee, you would have a record, correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And that's what I was asking, because I 6 was an employee for eight or nine years, or 7 whatever the number was, and so I would have 8 records, and whether they destroyed it or kept it. 9 We don't know. 10 MS. PARK: You need to speak up. 11 A I do not know. Sorry. 12 MR. LINDNER: I'm losing my voice too. 13 Q When were you instructed and directed by 14 American Express not to reveal, "Any information," 15 who instructed and directed you? 16 A Ash Gupta. 17 Q As you recall Ash Gupta was the person 18 listed ahead of you on the last of seven people on 19 paragraph 13. So, who would have instructed and 20 directed Ash Gupta? 21 A I do not know. 22 Q Do you know if you had to sign something 23 when you were instructed and directed? 24 A I did not signing. I do not remember I 0290 1 Lin 2 anything. 3 Q But you do recall Ash Gupta telling you 4 that, having that conversation? 5 A Yes. 6 MR. LINDNER: Okay. thank you. Well. 7 I would like to find out who instructed Ash 8 Gupta, whether he instructed himself. So, 9 Qing, made reference to not knowing it and 10 I think if there were document, I'm making 11 again a demand for a document that would 12 list who instructed whom. Thank you, Ms. 13 Park. 14 Q It would also be interesting to ask you 15 this question: When you looked at Document 1, 16 which was the Settlement Agreement, do you recall 17 any of the people who signed it before you looked 18 at it? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He said 20 he never seen the document. How can he 21 something he has never seen. 22 Q He say it a little earlier today. I'm 23 asking, without looking at it right now, do you 24 recall any of the names and other signatures it? 0291 1 Lin 2 A No. 3 Q Go to the end of the document, please. 4 A Last page? 5 Q Next to last page, thereabouts. I'm not 6 exactly. Do you see their signatures? 7 (Witness perusing) 8 A Yes. 9 Q Can you recognize any of the names? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Can you tell me which names you 12 recognize? 13 A Ash Gupta, Richard Tambor, Peter 14 Lindner. 15 Q Okay. So, Ash Gupta not only signed 16 that document and was supposed to be instructed 17 and directed, but he also carried out part of that 18 document by instructing and direction you, Qing 19 Lin; right. 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 21 MR. LINDNER: I don't understand your 22 objection. 23 MS. PARK: You are characterizing a 24 document a document that Mr. Lin has 0292 1 Lin 2 testified he has never even reviewed before 3 and you are also assuming facts that 4 haven't been testified to. 5 MR. LINDNER: Which fact? 6 MS. PARK: The fact that you recited 7 prior to asking Mr. Lin the question. 8 Q Well, I asked him if he recognized the 9 signature and you do; right? 10 A I recognize the printed name. 11 Q How about the signature, have you ever 12 seen Ash Gupta's signature? 13 A I have seen Ash's signature, yes. 14 Q Can you read what that signature says? 15 A I can I see it is a signature. I'm not 16 expert to compare to signature what is real or 17 what. 18 Q Can you read that signature? Can you 19 read my signature? 20 A No. 21 Q My signature is on the bottom line; 22 right? 23 A I cannot not read the letters. 24 Q Can you put on your glasses, please? 0293 1 Lin 2 A I can see. I'm farsighted. 3 Q Those are reading glasses, are they not? 4 A Reading glasses, yes. 5 Q Okay, so, I'd like you to read with your 6 reading glasses. Do you see where it says; Peter 7 Lindner? 8 A I see plaintiff, Peter Lindner, yes. 9 Q Do you see that signature? 10 A I see that signature, yes. 11 Q Does it say Peter Lindner? 12 A Now, if you ask whether it say; Peter 13 Lindner, I know it's Peter Lindner. It looks like 14 P. I don't know if it is P, or Q or D. 15 Q Right. So, what is the next letter? 16 A I don't know, I. 17 Q It could be. Then the letter after 18 that? 19 A R or P or W, going the other way. 20 Q Okay, but wait, there is no W in 21 Lindner. 22 A No, in the middle. 23 MS. PARK: You asked him to read the 24 handwriting. He's you telling what the 0294 1 Lin 2 letters look like. 3 MR. LINDNER: That's what I'm asking 4 him. 5 Q So, you can read what there is a W in 6 the middle of my name and my name happens to be 7 Peter W. Lindner. I signed it -- How did I sign? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q I signed it Peter W Lindner but I also 10 signed it a second time as Peter Lindner. Do you 11 see that? Do you see the two signatures? 12 A Yes, I see -- the one above this one 13 (Indicating)? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Yes. 16 Q So that is just in case anybody doubts 17 my signature I have it both ways. Now, if you 18 look at Ash Gupta, look at his signature. Do you 19 notice anything unusual about it? Can you read 20 the first letter of it. 21 A Yes. 22 Q So, read the letters until you can't 23 read any further? 24 A A-s-h then the remainder I do know. 0295 1 Lin 2 Q If you can read the last name, you'd be 3 a better man than I am. I can't figure that out 4 at all but I would submit that Ash is actually his 5 nickname. Do you know what Ash's full name is? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What is it? 8 A Ashwini. 9 Q Look at that signature, could it 10 possibly be Ashwini? Can you spell it please? 11 A A-s-h-w-i-n-i. 12 Q Does that look like that might be 13 Ashwini? 14 A It could be. 15 Q Could be? 16 A Yes. 17 Q So, what I'm saying is here that Ash 18 Gupta signed the document. I signed the document. 19 Okay, but I also pointed out earlier that the 20 document also included that, and that was on the 21 first page where it said Settlement Agreement and 22 release, general release, that it was against 23 American Express Corporation, Richard Tambor and 24 Ash Gupta; do you recall that? 0296 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q So, he has mentioned on the front page. 4 MS. PARK: We stipulate he is 5 mentioned on the first page. We stipulate 6 that his signature appears on the second to 7 last page of the document. 8 MR. LINDNER: Good. Will you 9 stipulate he is also mentioned on paragraph 10 13? 11 MS. PARK: The document speaks for 12 itself. Wherever his name appears, his 13 name appears. 14 MR. LINDNER: Some people would say 15 that Ash was not involved in the document 16 in June of 2000? 17 MS. PARK: Ask a question, Mr. 18 Lindner. 19 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking it of you. 20 MS. PARK: No, you are not asking me 21 any questions. I'm not a witness. 22 MR. LINDNER: Will you stipulate that 23 Ash Gupta was involved in the June 2000 24 Settlement Agreement? 0297 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: You are not asking me any 3 questions, Mr. Lindner. You have a witness 4 here, ask him questions. 5 MR. LINDNER: Right, I want to but 6 sometimes you answer for him. So, let me 7 ask Qing. 8 Q Qing, you have this document before you. 9 If you look at paragraph 12? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Read the first few words, the first 12 sentence, the first line and part of the second? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Please read it out loud? 15 A "The company, Ash Gupta and Richard 16 Tambor represent and agree not to disclose to any 17 party outside of the company any of the fact and 18 the circumstances." 19 Q Keep going? 20 A You asked me to read up -- 21 Q Keep going, please? 22 A "Leading up to Mr. Lindner's 23 termination." 24 Q Right. Can you interpret that sentence? 0298 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 Q Do you understand what that sentence 4 means? 5 A Yes. 6 Q What does it mean? 7 A It means the company, Ash Gupta, and 8 Rich Tambor agreed not to disclose to anybody 9 outside of company. 10 Q Right. So, now I'm saying that Ash 11 Gupta is not only, as Park said, on the first 12 page, as one of the subjects of the suit, and on 13 the last page, as a person who signed it, but he 14 is also mentioned in other paragraphs. I have 15 counted. I thought that he is mentioned ten 16 times. 17 Now, the interesting part on paragraph 18 is 13 it says, "That the company agrees to 19 instruct and direct the following employees not to 20 disclose any information," and one of those people 21 is you, and you are saying, am I correct, that Ash 22 Gupta instructed and directed you, correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q But we don't know who instructed Ash 0299 1 Lin 2 Gupta and that's what I'd like to find out. 3 MS. PARK: Asked and answered. 4 MR. LINDNER: What's the answer? 5 MS. PARK: He said he didn't know. 6 Move on. 7 MR. LINDNER: I'm requesting a 8 document that would indeed tell who did it. 9 That's what I'm saying. 10 Now I'm going to get to another 11 exhibit. This will be Plaintiff's Exhibit 12 4. 13 (Whereupon Plaintiff's 14 Exhibit 4 was received and 15 marked for identification, 16 as of this date.) 17 I'm giving you copy -- 18 MS. PARK: What is this document, Mr. 19 Lindner? 20 MR. LINDNER: Plaintiff's Exhibit 4 is 21 the American Express Company Code of 22 Conduct. I believe it's from 2005 -- 2004 23 to 2006. I'm not sure of the exact date. 24 MS. PARK: You want to produce this 0300 1 Lin 2 document to me? This is the first time I'm 3 seeing it. I don't know where it came from. 4 I don't know what this is, and again you 5 have never turned this over to me. 6 MR. LINDNER: I understand that. I 7 note for the record that I was not an 8 employee of American Express in 2004 or 9 2005. 10 MS. PARK: I don't know where you got 11 this. 12 MR. LINDNER: I can tell you. It was 13 filed with the Securities and Exchange 14 Commission and it was posted on the Amex 15 website. 16 Q So, I'm going to give you a copy of 17 this. Qing, can you take a look at it. Just look 18 at the front page. Have you ever seen this 19 document? Can you read the title? 20 A American Express Company Code of 21 Conduct. 22 Q Have you ever seen it? 23 MS. PARK: Take a look at it. Review 24 it. 0301 1 Lin 2 Q Take the first page, just first page. 3 We'll -- 4 MS. PARK: He cannot identify that he 5 has seen the document based on the first 6 page. 7 Q Maybe he can identify it. So, that's 8 why I'm asking, have you seen that first page? 9 MS. PARK: I'm directing Mr. Lin to 10 review the document before he makes any -- 11 MR. LINDNER: We will do it but he 12 might say, I recognize it or he might say, 13 I don't. 14 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner, you have 15 handed him a 35 page document and you are 16 asking him if recognizes it -- 17 Q Did you recognize the first page? 18 MS. PARK: I'm not allowing him 19 without reviewing it. 20 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, please trust 21 me on this. We will get to where he gets 22 to review it. I just want to start with 23 one page instead of a hundred pages. 24 Q So, let me start with the first page. 0302 1 Lin 2 Do you recognize that first page? 3 A I do not remember seeing this page in 4 this format. I recognize what is American Express 5 Company Code of Conduct. 6 Q What format do you recognize it in? 7 A I do not remember. 8 Q Do you recognize it, for instance, this 9 is a format where I printed it and then printed it 10 on my laser printer. If you saw this, would you 11 have maybe seen it electronically or in a 12 published booklet form? 13 A I do not remember. 14 Q Okay. That's good. Now you can open 15 it. So, turn to the third page. They don't have 16 numbering. So, turn to the page before that. I'm 17 sorry. At the top it says, June 2005, right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Who is it signed by? 20 A Ken Chenault. 21 Q What's his title? 22 A Ken Chenault. 23 MS. PARK: We stipulate the title of 24 this document says that Mr. Chenault's 0303 1 Lin 2 title says, Chairman and Chief Executive 3 Officer. Move on. 4 MR. LINDNER: In 2005. Thank you, 5 Ms. Park. 6 Q He is still the Chairman and Chief 7 Executive Officer or has his title changed? 8 A Not to my knowledge. 9 Q It's the same? 10 A It is the same, yes. 11 Q Thank you very much. Alright. So, we 12 are going to go over this document and I'm going 13 to ask you, now that you have seen this page, do 14 you want to take a look at it for, like, a few 15 minutes, to just skim through it and see if you 16 have seen it before, if the words ring like you 17 might have seen it? You get what I'm asking, 18 right? 19 A So, I have seen American Express Code of 20 Conduct. 21 Q You have. In what way? 22 A I do not remember every word. It's the 23 format of it. That's as much as I could say. 24 Q But you remember some of it, right? 0304 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 MR. LINDNER: You know, Ms. Park, 4 maybe you can enlighten me. Can you tell 5 me what you mean by objection to form? 6 MS. PARK: No, Mr. Lindner, my job is 7 not to educate you. You go figure it out. 8 MR. LINDNER: I can't figure it out 9 today because I'm doing the deposition 10 today. 11 MS. PARK: Well, too bad. 12 Q When you look at the first page of the 13 page you were on, if you look at the signed 14 document, it says on the second paragraph -- Can 15 you read the first sentence of the second 16 paragraph out loud? 17 A Which one, the current version? 18 Q Yes. 19 A "The Current version of the code is like 20 each of it's earlier versions issued since 1975." 21 Q Keep going. 22 A "Set forth guiding principals and 23 illustrated examples to assist you in deciding how 24 to resolve potentially troublesome issues and 0305 1 Lin 2 where to go for help and advice. 3 Q Okay. Does that sound familiar to you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Can you tell me in which way it sounds 6 familiar? 7 A No. I just remember that's all it's 8 supposed to do. 9 Q Well, do you think that you have only 10 seen it once in your career but it's been very 11 memorable or you have seen it many times? 12 A I probably have seen it a few times. 13 Yes, several times. 14 Q Several times? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So, you have been with Amex for 19 17 years. 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you think possibly you've seen it 18 20 times? 21 A Could be. 22 Q Like a yearly type thing? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Do you think that possibly you had to 0306 1 Lin 2 sign the document saying that you've read it? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Yes, what? 5 A I got trained for Code of Conduct. 6 Q What is the training? 7 A I do not remember exact format. 8 Q Approximately. 9 A It could be in a town hall meeting. I 10 remember one time it is a town hall meeting and a 11 speaker delivered the key message of the Code of 12 Conduct and then we signed that. 13 Q Who? 14 A Every employee in the town hall signed 15 that. 16 Q Okay. So, like a group marriage, but 17 instead of a group marriage it was a group 18 signing. Alright, what is the general purpose of 19 this document, if you can -- Let me ask it a 20 different way. Have you ever instructed people on 21 this document? 22 A Have I ever instruct people? 23 Q Yes. In other words -- 24 A What do you mean instruct people? 0307 1 Lin 2 Q You know, it's sort of like, have you 3 ever been to a math class? And you go, yes. Then 4 I go, have you ever instructed math? There is a 5 difference between being a teacher and a student. 6 So, I understand that you went to a meeting. I 7 don't want to say that you are were student but 8 that you were being told about it. Have you ever 9 told somebody, instructed them, on the Code of 10 Conduct? 11 A No. 12 Q Okay. So, what is the purpose of the 13 Code of Conduct? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 15 A You want me to look through it, read the 16 purpose or -- 17 Q Well, what do you feel the purpose is? 18 A As a guiding principal for employees to 19 guide the employee behavior in a company. 20 Q What sort of behaviors are they trying 21 to establish there? 22 A Could you be more specific? 23 Q Sure. Is this the type of document that 24 says, we want people to work hard, be on time, 0308 1 Lin 2 wear certain clothes. Is that the type of 3 document it is? 4 A I don't think so. 5 Q Well, can you characterize it in a 6 better way? 7 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Ask him 8 a real question. 9 Q How would you characterize what this 10 document's intent is? 11 MS. PARK: The intent of what the Code 12 of Conduct is, or this particular document? 13 MR. LINDNER: This document is a Code 14 of Conduct. I want to know how -- what the 15 intent is of this document. 16 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 17 didn't draft this document. How is he 18 supposed to know what it's intent is? 19 MR. LINDNER: He might know. 20 Q Do you know what the intent of this 21 document is? 22 A So -- 23 Q You have signed this document, right? 24 A Yes. 0309 1 Lin 2 Q Did you sign something that you didn't 3 know what it was about? 4 A So, Peter -- 5 Q I'm asking you a direct question. Did 6 you -- 7 MS. PARK: Let him answer. 8 MR. LINDNER: Please, Ms. Park, let me 9 finish my question. 10 MS. PARK: Yes, you cut him off. 11 Q I'm asking for a simple answer. Do you 12 sign documents that you don't know what they are 13 about? 14 A So, the question is, did I ever sign a 15 document I know nothing about? 16 Q Yes. 17 A No. 18 Q Okay, so you knew something about this 19 document when you signed it; correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And that makes sense because you could 22 be signing for a lot of money or something like 23 that or whatever. But you only sign things that 24 you read. Did you read this document therefor? 0310 1 Lin 2 Are you saying you did read this document and 3 understand it when you signed it? 4 A I have to say that I did not read every 5 single word of this document. The signage of this 6 document could be based on training, could be 7 based on some high level instructions, and I 8 agreed with that, and I signed it. So, nobody has 9 required me to read every single word before I 10 sign it. 11 Q But you probably signed it more than 12 once; right? 13 A Yes. 14 Q In fact, you might have signed it -- 15 MS. PARK: Do you have a question? 16 Q -- 10 or 20 times, correct? 17 A I don't know how many times I signed it. 18 Q But if you had to guess a range, just 19 like you work in your business and you work on 20 approximations, if you had to approximate how many 21 times you signed it, what range do you feel would 22 be a reasonable range? 23 A I don't remember. 24 Q Well, please think about it. 0311 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: You got his answer. Move 3 on. 4 MR. LINDNER: I'd like him to think 5 about it. 6 A You're asking me to guess at -- 7 Q Yes, I'm asking you to guess. 8 MS. PARK: Don't guess. 9 Q I'm asking you to guess. 10 MS. PARK: Don't guess. 11 MR. LINDNER: Are you instructing him 12 not to guess? 13 MS. PARK: No -- Yeah, I'm instructing 14 him not to guess. 15 Q I'm asking him to give a range. Did you 16 only sign this document twice in your life? Qing, 17 do you think it's likely that you only signed it 18 twice in your life? 19 MS. PARK: Go ahead and answer. 20 A I'm sorry, your question again? 21 MR. LINDNER: Marian, can you read 22 back the question? 23 MS. PARK: He asked did you sign it 24 more than twice? 0312 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you think you signed it fifty times 4 in your life? 5 A No. 6 Q So, it's a number between two and fifty? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you think it is fair to say that this 9 is a yearly document or every two years or every 10 three years or something like that? 11 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Which 12 question are you asking him? 13 Q What period of time do you think they 14 give this document for people to sign? 15 A I do not remember. 16 Q I know you don't remember but if you had 17 to guess? 18 A So, how do I guess? I would say two -- 19 three years on average. 20 Q That's what I was asking for. 21 A Okay. 22 Q Alright. So, if you average two or 23 three years, and you work there 19 years, that 24 means you signed it how many times? 0313 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: No, Mr. Lindner, you asked 3 him to the guess. 4 MR. LINDNER: I know but using that 5 guess. 6 A What is your deduction, Peter? 7 Q What would your deduction be? 8 A Do I have to deduct this on hypothetic 9 situation? 10 Q It's a real situation. We are trying to 11 get an answer using your methods, which you use, 12 by the way in your job -- 13 MS. PARK: No, Mr. Lindner, you asked 14 him to guess and he gave you the guess of 15 maybe every two or three years on average. 16 Q I understand. So, if you translate the 17 two or three years, every two or three years you 18 signed it -- 19 MS. PARK: That he guesses he signed 20 it. 21 Q Right. So, that would translate to, how 22 many times have you actually signed it, assuming 23 it's every two or three years? 24 MS. PARK: Well, what's two divided by 0314 1 Lin 2 nineteen or we would do three divided by 3 nineteen, Mr. Lindner? 4 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, I caution you 5 again, do not answer for Qing. 6 Q Let me ask you the question. If you 7 answer how often you signed it, as Ms. Park said, 8 three divided by nineteen? 9 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, don't answer. 10 I want Qing to answer. 11 A State your question again. 12 Q Ms. Park said it's three divided by 13 nineteen. That's how often you signed it -- 14 MS. PARK: No, I said two or three. 15 MR. LINDNER: Please, Ms. Park, we 16 will get to you later. I am asking Qing. 17 A So, I did not understand the question. 18 You quote Ms. Park and I did not hear Ms. Park. 19 So, I do not understand the question. 20 MR. LINDNER: Marian, can you read 21 back what Ms. Park said? 22 (Record read) 23 A I cannot answer the question of how many 24 times I actually signed. 0315 1 Lin 2 Q Given that somebody signed it every two 3 to three years, is the answer two divided by 4 nineteen or three divided by nineteen; yes or no? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 6 A So, are you asking what is two divided 7 by nineteen? 8 Q Yes. 9 A That's a mathematical question? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Two divided by nineteen. Two 12 nineteenth's. 13 Q Which is approximately how much. 14 A Less than one. 15 Q Less than one. 16 A Two divided by nineteen. 17 Q So, you are saying he is doing it less 18 than one -- 19 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, I don't want 20 you to answer the question. I'm not 21 directing mathematical questions at you. 22 Even if you are a great mathematician or 23 you are a horrible one. I wish not to ask 24 you this. 0316 1 Lin 2 Q So, Qing, I'm asking you, what number 3 you would you say if you -- 4 MS. PARK: This should be nineteen 5 divided by two or nineteen divided by 6 three. 7 MR. LINDNER: That's right. That's 8 why I don't want you to answer. I wanted 9 Qing to answer. You see, Qing wouldn't 10 make a mistake like that. Qing wouldn't 11 say two nineteenths when he has nineteen 12 over two. So, that's why I want Qing to 13 answer, even though -- 14 MS. PARK: It's so important, Mr. 15 Lindner. It's critical to your case. 16 MR. LINDNER: I don't appreciate your 17 -- 18 MS. PARK: That's okay. You can 19 answer, Mr. Qing. 20 MR. LINDNER: If you have an objection 21 please place it on the record but I asked 22 Qing a question and I'd like an answer from 23 him. 24 Q Can you please answer. It's not two 0317 1 Lin 2 over nineteen. What is the correct answer? 3 A So, what is the question again because 4 the conversation goes on, so -- 5 Q I apologize for that but my counterpart 6 has been giving answers when I was directing it to 7 you. So, let me ask it again. If you sign a 8 document every two or three years and you have 9 been there for 18 or 19 years, how many times 10 would that mean you have signed it? 11 A So, this is a word problem of 12 arithmetics? 13 Q Yes, it's an arithmetic word problem. 14 Do you know the answer to it? 15 A Hypothetic situation? 16 Q No, this is a real situation. 17 A No, I told you I do not remember. 18 Q I know you did. But assuming that to be 19 the case, what would the number come out to be? 20 A I cannot assume a real case. I cannot 21 assume a real case period. You are saying it's 22 real. 23 Q Let me ask you a question, not a 24 hypothetical. Do you have customers who you have 0318 1 Lin 2 had in your business for 19 years or 18 years; yes 3 or no? You have customers, you call them card 4 members; is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do you have card members who have been 7 there 18 or 19 years? 8 A Yes. 9 Q If I told you every two or three 10 times -- every two or three years they exceed 11 their card limit, do you understand what that 12 means? 13 A No. 14 Q Their credit limit. If they exceed 15 their credit limit every two or three years -- 16 A How many times? 17 Q How many times in their 18 or 19 year 18 membership history have they exceeded their card 19 limit? 20 A I do not know the answer because you 21 have not given how many times within a year they 22 exceed their limit. 23 Q Every two or three years they do that. 24 A They do that once or do that twice. 0319 1 Lin 2 Q They do it once every two or three 3 years? 4 A Okay. So, let me restate that 5 mathematical question here -- 6 Q Give me the answer, if you know, instead 7 of -- 8 A No, no, because I have to get accuracy 9 off -- 10 Q Go ahead. Then do it. 11 A Mathematical questions I have to get 12 accuracy. 13 Q Go ahead. 14 A Let me repeat the question. So you say 15 a hypothetical customer of American Express, 16 assume they go over their credit limit once every 17 two or three years, in the 18 to 19 years span how 18 many times they would exceed their credit limit? 19 Q Correct. 20 A Is that the mathematical question you 21 stated? 22 Q Yes. Do you know the answer to that? 23 A Not off my head. I can calculate. 24 Q Please do that. Do you need a pen? 0320 1 Lin 2 A I might. 3 Q Here is a pen. 4 A Yes. 5 Q How many? 6 A It would be in the range of 6 to 9.5 7 times. 8 Q Okay, thank you very much. So, six to 9 ten times and what I'm trying to get out of this 10 is that in your period at American Express, if 11 this document were given to you every two or three 12 years, that meant that you signed it six to nine 13 or ten times. 14 A Assume -- 15 Q Assuming that. Assuming you were there 16 for 18 or 19 years, assuming that they give it 17 every two or three years, it meant that you did it 18 six to nine or ten times. 19 A Yes. 20 MR. LINDNER: And that's what I was 21 going for. The tape has to be changed. 22 So, I'm going to say we are going to go off 23 the record, with your permission, Ms. Park. 24 Ms. Park? 0321 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: If the tape needs to be 3 changed then it needs to be changed. It 4 needs to be changed. Can we noted the 5 time. 6 MR. LINDNER: The time is 5:47. I 7 want to make a note before we go off the 8 record that this is one time out that I did 9 not call. Thank you. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This ends tape 11 number 4. We are off the record at 5:48. 12 Off the record. 13 (Recess taken.) 14 This begins tape number 5 in the 15 deposition of Qing Lin. We are on the 16 record at 5:51. 17 MR. LINDNER: Hello. This is Peter 18 Lindner. We are back on the record. We 19 were asking Qing Lin about documents on the 20 Exhibit Number 4, I believe, which is 21 American Express Code of Conduct and we are 22 going to continue with that. I'm sorry, 23 I'm shuffling through my papers. I 24 apologize. The document that I have, which 0322 1 Lin 2 would guide me through this whole thing, I 3 can't find. So, there goes the line of 4 questioning. I'm about to abandon it and 5 move onto my next subject. 6 I found it. Sorry, for the delay. 7 Q Alright, can you turn to page -- These 8 pages are not numbered. So, I'm having a little 9 trouble with them. They are numbered a little 10 later. Here they are numbered. If we go to -- 11 Let's stay on the current page, alright? I'm 12 going to go over a few points and, please, the one 13 that starts June 2005, alright. 14 MS. PARK: Let the record reflect Mr. 15 Lindner is referring to Plaintiff's 4. 16 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. Is 17 everything okay, Dmitry. 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: There's a little 19 interference on the mike. 20 Q The paragraph that you read, where it 21 says, "Since 1975," the last part of the sentence 22 says, "Resolving a potentially troublesome issue, 23 where to go to get help and advice." Do you see 24 that part, Qing? 0323 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Would you say, when you were instructed 4 and directed by Ash Gupta not to give any 5 information to other people and then later Fisher 6 Jordan asked about me and you gave information, 7 would you consider that a potentially troublesome 8 issue? 9 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 10 A So are you asking, at the time? 11 Q Yes. 12 A No, I didn't. 13 Q In retrospect, was it a potentially 14 troublesome issue? 15 A It could be. 16 Q Why would you say that? 17 A Otherwise I wouldn't be sitting here. 18 Q And it's a pain, right? 19 MS. PARK: Objection. 20 Q Let me ask it again. Qing, do you 21 consider it a pain to be sitting here? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 23 A No, it is taking up my productive 24 working time. 0324 1 Lin 2 Q That's it? It's just a day that you 3 lost or is it more than that? 4 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 5 A It's part of my job. I have been called 6 here. I have to come here. 7 Q So, let's go to the next paragraph. It 8 says, "It includes additional guidance about 9 conflict of interest." What does the term 10 conflict of interest mean? 11 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 12 A Conflict of interest? 13 Q Yes, do you understand that phrase? 14 A I think so. 15 Q What does it mean to you. You are not a 16 lawyer. 17 A Yes. 18 Q We have established that. 19 MS. PARK: Are you asking in the 20 context of this document or are you asking 21 his opinion about what that means? 22 MR. LINDNER: In the context of this 23 document. 24 MS. PARK: Well then ask that 0325 1 Lin 2 question. 3 MR. LINDNER: Thank you, Ms. Park. If 4 I went to law school I would have. 5 Q The conflict of interest, what are they 6 talking about there? 7 A I can best describe this with an 8 example. 9 Q Please. 10 A My personal interest and the company's 11 interest are not consistent and that I act on my 12 personal interest in compromise of company's 13 interest. 14 Q Okay. Now the last sentence of the next 15 paragraph, can you read that? 16 A I'm sorry which one. 17 Q The next paragraph? 18 A The next paragraph -- 19 MS. PARK: Which one? Starting with 20 what sentence. 21 Q "You will be?" 22 A Which sentence? 23 Q It says, "You will be," right? What is 24 the last sentence of that paragraph? 0326 1 Lin 2 A "No waiver of this applicability will be 3 granted under any circumstances." 4 Q What does that mean? 5 A I don't know. I just read the sentence. 6 Q I know you just read it. You don't know 7 what it means, okay? 8 A No. In the context it say if someone 9 violate the Code of Conduct -- 10 Q Yes. 11 A -- it will not be waived. 12 Q Okay, I interpret it differently. But 13 the way I interpret it, and I know Ms. Park is 14 going to object, is that people can be said to not 15 have to abide by the Code of Conduct. You know, 16 they say: Hey, the Code of Conduct applies to you 17 but not to me, and, believe it or not, the company 18 can say a group of people whom (sic) they don't 19 have to abide by it. But in this sentence, as I 20 understand it, you can't do that. They are 21 saying, Ken is saying that he is not going to 22 allow anyone, under any circumstances, to be 23 exempted from this policy. 24 Does the term, "No one will be you 0327 1 Lin 2 exempted from this policy," mean anything to you? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 A So, I do not understand your statement. 5 Q In other words, did you have to abide by 6 this policy? Does this policy apply to you? 7 MS. PARK: You mean the Code of 8 Conduct? 9 MR. LINDNER: Yes. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. Alright, and now in the next 12 paragraph, the second sentence says, in accordance 13 with our values each of us is "personally 14 accountable for preventing or correcting 15 violations." Do you understand what that means? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What does it mean? 18 A It means personally accountable for 19 preventing or correcting violations. 20 Q Well, actually you just repeated the 21 exact words here. Can you use your own words to 22 tell me what it means? 23 A It means everyone is accountable. 24 Q Can you use a word other than 0328 1 Lin 2 accountable, please? 3 A Everyone is responsible for preventing a 4 violation from happening -- 5 Q Right. 6 A -- or correcting violations once it 7 happened. 8 Q So, that might apply to you, right? 9 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 10 A What is applied to me? 11 Q If you were in a situation that was a 12 violation of the code -- 13 A Yes. 14 Q -- that you can't say, that's not my 15 job. I'm not responsible for it. You would have 16 to conclude that you personally are responsible? 17 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 18 Q Accountable -- 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 MR. LINDNER: Thank you. Noted. 21 Q Is that how you would interrupt that 22 phrase? 23 MS. PARK: Objection to form. You 24 have asked him four questions. Which one 0329 1 Lin 2 do you want him to answer? 3 Q I want him to answer how would you 4 interpret that phrase applying to you? 5 MS. PARK: What phrase? 6 MR. LINDNER: Qing will understand it. 7 A No, I do not understand because it's a 8 long sentence and I do not know which one. 9 Q Okay. Each of us is personally 10 accountable for correcting violations. Do you 11 understand what that means? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you violate the code in any way? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you violation Paragraph 13 of the 16 Contract? 17 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He is 18 not an attorney. 19 Q You read the paragraph earlier in the 20 day -- 21 MS. PARK: Paragraph 13 of what? 22 Q Of the Settlement Agreement, which would 23 be Exhibit 1. You answered that previously. 24 MS. PARK: No, he didn't. 0330 1 Lin 2 Q Did you give any information to a person 3 outside of American Express, namely Boaz? 4 MS. PARK: Asked and answered. He 5 said he did. 6 Q Do you consider that a violation of that 7 contract? 8 A No. 9 Q Of the Settlement Agreement? 10 A No. 11 Q Is it consistent with it? In other 12 words, you were doing what that Settlement 13 Agreement asked for? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 15 A I don't know. 16 Q You don't know? So, you don't know if 17 talking to Boaz Salik is okay or not okay? So you 18 could tell about me; is that what you are saying? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Okay or 20 not okay in a legal manner or under the 21 contract? What are you talking about? 22 Q Before lunch you said you gave 23 information, any information to Boaz Salik; right? 24 A Say that question again. 0331 1 Lin 2 Q Just before we broke for lunch I asked 3 you, and Ms. Park just now said, "Asked and 4 answered." 5 A So, which question are you referring to? 6 Q I'm asking did you give any information 7 to Boaz, please? 8 MS. PARK: About you? 9 MR. LINDNER: Yes. 10 A The answer is, yes. 11 Q Is that what the contract called you to 12 do? 13 A I do not know. 14 Q Well, it says, do not give, "Any 15 information." So, you gave information. So that 16 would seem to be opposite. So, in other words, 17 you violated the contract? 18 MS. PARK: Objection to form. You are 19 asking him to make a legal conclusion, 20 Mr. Lindner. 21 MR. LINDNER: That's right. 22 MS. PARK: Ask him about facts. 23 Q Now, the reason I'm asking you is that 24 sometimes, when you do something, you don't have a 0332 1 Lin 2 lawyer with you. You know, when you hit somebody 3 you don't say, "Hey is that okay if I hit them?" 4 It has legal consequences but you don't need a 5 lawyer to know that it is not okay to hit 6 somebody. You understand that, right, Qing? 7 A So, I understand in your situation it is 8 an area of hitting someone. 9 Q Yes, that's what I'm saying. Now, you 10 wouldn't say that's a legal situation, so you 11 don't know what it means, because you are not a 12 lawyer. You would say, "I know what it means," 13 correct? If somebody were to say, is it legal to 14 hit somebody? Chances are you would say -- What 15 would you say? Is it legal to hit somebody? 16 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 17 A No. 18 Q Thank you. Are you a lawyer? No. So, 19 yet you made a legal conclusion -- 20 MS. PARK: Wait. Did you let him 21 answer? Did you answer for him or did you 22 let him answer? 23 MR. LINDNER: I'll ask him again. 24 Q Are you lawyer, Qing? 0333 1 Lin 2 A No. 3 Q And yet again it calls for a legal 4 conclusion; correct? 5 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 6 Q Did it ask for a legal conclusion? 7 MS. PARK: Did what ask for a legal 8 conclusion? 9 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, please stop 10 interrupting. If he has a question, he can 11 ask. He is an executive in charge of a 12 hundred people. 13 Q How many people are you in charge of; 14 Qing? 15 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 16 Q Qing, are you in charge of a number of 17 people? 18 A Yes. 19 Q How many people? 20 A Around a hundred. 21 MR. LINDNER: He is in charge of a 22 hundred people. 23 Q So, if Qing does not understand a 24 question, Qing, will you be able to ask me that 0334 1 Lin 2 you don't understand it or do you need Ms. Park to 3 ask that? 4 A Sometimes I do. 5 Q Sometimes you do, okay. When you do, 6 please say, "I don't understand," alright? But 7 you could tell me, alright? But, in this case I'm 8 asking, you can make a legal decision, you can 9 make a legal conclusion without a lawyer. Do you 10 agree? 11 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 12 A I do not agree. 13 Q So, if somebody said is it legal to hit 14 somebody, you would say -- What would you say to 15 that? 16 A I do not know. 17 Q So, if a kid of yours -- Do you have 18 children? I don't mean to pry. Let's say you 19 have a friend's child and he says, "I'm going to 20 hit that person," how would you counsel them? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 A I do not know. What do you mean how do 23 I counsel someone? 24 Q What would you say to the child if he 0335 1 Lin 2 wanted to hit somebody -- 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 Q -- he was so angry with them he wanted 5 to hit them? 6 A You are giving a very hypothetic 7 question. I don't know -- 8 Q I know you don't know. I'm just asking, 9 if somebody relied upon you, do you need a law 10 degree to make a decision on that? 11 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 12 A So, if you are asking me a ethical 13 question -- 14 Q Yes. 15 A Was it a legal question? 16 Q Yes. 17 A So, if you've asked me my personal 18 judgment whether it is right or not -- 19 Q Yes, all of them. Please, answer. 20 Answer all those things. 21 A Answer all what things? 22 Q You said your professional opinion, your 23 ethical opinion -- What is your ethical opinion on 24 somebody hitting somebody, if asked by a little 0336 1 Lin 2 child? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 4 A I do not know what is the setting. You 5 give me a totally huge hypothetical question. So, 6 very broad. I do not know the setting. I cannot 7 give you a qualified answer. 8 Q Okay. Do you know the answer to whether 9 it is right or not to speak to Boaz Salik about 10 giving him information about me, yes or no? Do 11 you know the answer? 12 A State the question again. 13 Q Do you know the answer of whether it is 14 appropriate or ethical to give "Any information" 15 about me, Peter Lindner, to Boaz Salik? 16 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Are you 17 asking -- 18 A At the time? 19 Q At the time, yes. 20 A I did not think of that. 21 Q But do you know the answer now? 22 A As of now? 23 Q Yes. 24 A As I'm sitting here? 0337 1 Lin 2 Q Yes. 3 A Yes. 4 Q What is the answer now? 5 A In terms of my judgment? 6 Q Yes. 7 A What I should have done or should not 8 have done? 9 Q Yes. 10 A If I can redo it? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I would not. 13 Q And what would you do instead? 14 A I would tell Boaz, for legal reasons I 15 cannot give any information about Peter Lindner. 16 Please refer to HR Department. 17 Q Okay, that's what you say. Actually, I 18 don't think you need all that. I think you just 19 have to say, "Please go to the HR Department." 20 But anyhow, you will acknowledge that what you did 21 then is different than what you would do now, 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q You will also acknowledge that this 0338 1 Lin 2 would be what some people call a question, 3 quandary, a difficult situation, something that 4 you have to think about to make a right decision, 5 correct? 6 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 7 A At that time or right now? 8 Q How about right now? 9 A Right now you made it difficult, yes. 10 Q Yes, okay. Now, the paragraph, the next 11 to last paragraph begins -- 12 MS. PARK: Which document are we on? 13 MR. LINDNER: We are on, I appreciate 14 that, Ms. Park, the Code of Conduct, 15 Document 4, the next to last page. 16 A Which page. 17 Q The one that says, "June 2005." 18 A Okay. 19 Q The next to last paragraph starts off 20 saying, "You are encouraged to discuss any 21 questions or concerns you may have about the code 22 or the proprietary of any past, present or 23 anticipated conduct with your leader." Who is 24 your leader? 0339 1 Lin 2 A Ash Gupta. 3 Q So, if you had any questions or concerns 4 about your conduct, and talking to Boaz was 5 conduct, would you agree with that? 6 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 7 A So, at the time or right now? 8 Q Right now? 9 A Right now? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Do I have concerns of what? I was 12 talking to Boaz already. So, do I have concerns. 13 Q You've talked to him about this 14 situation? 15 A No, no. So, what you are referring to, 16 I have talked to Boaz about you in that 17 conversation. 18 Q Yes. 19 A And now do I feel concerned? 20 Q Yes? 21 A Or do I feel -- 22 Q Yes. 23 A What is your question? 24 Q Do you feel concerned? 0340 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: About what? 3 A About what? 4 Q About talking to Boaz back then? 5 A It's happened. I don't concern with 6 something happened. 7 Q It happened in the past, right? 8 A Yes. 9 Q But if it were to happen in the future 10 would you do the same thing? 11 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 12 answered. 13 Q I'm asking if you would do the same 14 thing? 15 A Do the same thing? So, if I repeat. 16 So, if Boaz asked me again about you -- 17 Q Yes. 18 A -- would I do the same thing? 19 Q Yes? 20 A No. 21 Q So, look at the wording on that 22 paragraph. It says on Document 4 on the pages of 23 June 2005, which I call page 3, it says, "Any 24 questions you may have about the code of any past, 0341 1 Lin 2 present or anticipated," they don't say past, 3 present, future -- 4 MS. PARK: You are not even reading 5 the whole document. 6 MR. LINDNER: I know I'm not. 7 Q But you said at one point that incident 8 is past. But this says, even if it is a past 9 incident, you should talk about it. 10 MS. PARK: He has also testified 11 that -- 12 MR. LINDNER: Please. 13 MS. PARK: No. 14 MR. LINDNER: Do you have an 15 objection, Ms. Park? 16 MS. PARK: Yes, objection to form. He 17 hasn't testified that his conversation with 18 Boaz that he considered that to be a 19 violation of the code. Once again, you are 20 assuming testimony that hasn't been given. 21 MR. LINDNER: That's right. And I'm 22 not asking -- 23 MS. PARK: That's contradictory 24 testimony. 0342 1 Lin 2 Q I'm not asking that. I'm pointing out 3 and I think, Qing, you have admitted, that you 4 would handled it differently now than you handled 5 it in the past. Is that correct? 6 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 7 Q Am I characterizing what you said 8 correctly? 9 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 10 A So, you are saying words differently. 11 So, I do not know, because there was a lot of 12 contact, and exactly what I said -- 13 Q Would you do the same thing now that you 14 did back then? 15 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 16 A Same thing of what? 17 Q Talking to Boaz? 18 A Be accurate because -- 19 Q Yes, I understand? 20 A -- this is a legal question. 21 Q I understand. 22 Q We were going over it. What I was 23 trying to say here is that this document says that 24 if you have a question about something -- 0343 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: No, about the code. It's 3 not a question about something. 4 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, if you have an 5 objection, please raise it. 6 MS. PARK: Yes, because you are 7 mischaracterizing the document. 8 MR. LINDNER: Okay, that is your point 9 of view. 10 Q As I read this document it says, you are 11 encouraged to discuss any questions or concerns. 12 So, if you have a question you can talk to them. 13 If you have a concern you can talk to them. Do 14 you agree with that, Qing? 15 A No. 16 Q Why do you not agree? 17 A It says about the code. 18 Q What's the next word after the word 19 code? 20 A Or the property -- 21 Q Propriety? 22 A Propriety of any past, present or 23 anticipated conduct. 24 Q So, don't you see that means, if you 0344 1 Lin 2 have a question about the code or if you have a 3 question about the propriety of a past conduct or 4 if you have a question of proprietary of a present 5 conduct, or if you have a question about the 6 propriety of anticipated conduct or if you have a 7 concern about the code or if you have a concern 8 about the propriety of -- it doesn't do all the 9 permutations there, but you are skilled in 10 understanding that it doesn't just say, if you 11 have a question about the code, talk to your 12 leader. It is saying, if you have a question 13 about the conduct, and it doesn't say conduct in 14 the future, it doesn't say conduct that is 15 happening right now, it also includes -- finish my 16 sentence. Can you finish my sentence? 17 A No. 18 Q It also includes conduct in the past. 19 Do you agree with that? 20 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 21 A So, you are asking a lot of questions. 22 The conduct is regarding to the code. If I 23 believe the conduct is violation of the code. In 24 that context, I agree. 0345 1 Lin 2 Q Okay. So, suppose it was conduct in the 3 past. Should you ask about it or does it say not 4 to ask about it? 5 A The conduct -- 6 Q In the past. 7 A Of what context? 8 Q Well, it doesn't say. 9 A No, because you have to say conduct in 10 violation of the code or any conduct. 11 Q Any conduct? 12 A No. 13 MS. PARK: What is the question? 14 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park -- 15 Q It says, "If you have any question about 16 past, present or anticipated conduct?" 17 MS. PARK: No, it says, "You are 18 encouraged to discuss any questions or 19 concerns you may have about the code or the 20 propriety of any past, present or 21 anticipated conduct with your leader or 22 other company representatives listed in the 23 code." 24 Q So, let me break it down into two 0346 1 Lin 2 things. Here is one possibility. Suppose you 3 don't understand how the code works. If you have 4 questions about that, would you talk to your 5 leader about it? Yes or no, as you read this 6 sentence? 7 A If I do not understand the code? 8 Q Yes. 9 A Yes, I would talk -- 10 Q It would say, according to the sentence; 11 right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q I'm not using any other document, okay? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Suppose there was an action? You took 16 some action, and that's what conduct means, 17 action. You agree that conduct means action? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Suppose you had an action that you were 20 going to do and you had questions about that 21 action, does this sentence address that or not? 22 A No. 23 Q So, in other words, if somebody says to 24 you, and you were their leader, I have a question 0347 1 Lin 2 about some action that I'm thinking about taking 3 in the future, you would say to them, "I don't see 4 why you are coming to me." The code doesn't say 5 that You can only come to me with questions about 6 the code not about questions about anticipated 7 conduct. 8 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 9 A Peter, let me state your question. 10 Q Sure. 11 A Are you suggesting that any conduct I 12 have in the office I have to consult my leader. 13 Is that what you are suggesting? 14 Q I'm not suggesting any of that. I'm 15 suggesting that they -- 16 A This is how you read the sentence. 17 That's the best I can understand what you just 18 said. 19 Q I understand what you are saying. But 20 it says, if you have a question or a concern. For 21 instance, if you don't have a question or concern, 22 you don't have to, but if you have a question, 23 then you should -- they are encouraging you. Do 24 you understand that? 0348 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 Q How do you interpret that sentence? 4 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 5 answered. 6 Q I'm asking you how would you interpret 7 that? Are you saying that -- Let me get it right. 8 Yes or no, you are saying that if somebody wants 9 to come to their leader with a question about some 10 conduct that they have right at the moment or 11 they're going to have, they anticipate having that 12 they should under this sentence, it does not apply 13 to them? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He has 15 testified -- 16 MR. LINDNER: Please, you can object. 17 You can say it afterwards. 18 Q Can you please answer? 19 A These two are too irrelevant questions. 20 MR. LINDNER: They are irrelevant 21 questions. Okay, thank you very much. 22 Q Go to page 32, please. I got this off 23 the web. It was a PDF and because it has Roman 24 numerals -- 0349 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Ask your question. 3 MR. LINDNER: Please, Ms. Park -- 4 A It's 32? 5 Q It's the bottom, left-hand side. 6 Because it has Roman numerals the numbering is 7 off. 8 A Okay. 9 Q It says, "You must read, understand and 10 comply with the code. If you have any questions 11 you are responsible for asking your leader for 12 clarification." How (sic) would you interpret 13 those two sentences to mean? 14 A I understand the code and if I have 15 questions I need to ask my leader about the code. 16 Q Do you understand the code? 17 MS. PARK: Objection. Asked and 18 answered. 19 A So, I do not remember every single word 20 of this document -- 21 Q But do you understand the code? 22 A Do I understand the code? 23 Q Yes. 24 A Yes. 0350 1 Lin 2 Q Do you have any questions about it? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you understand what that prior 5 sentence which you read, which was that "you are 6 encouraged to discuss any questions or concerns 7 that you may have about the code or the propriety 8 of any past, present or anticipated conduct." You 9 understand that sentence, right? 10 A I understand. I think have a different 11 understanding of yours. 12 Q That's right. Some people would say 13 when one person has a different understanding than 14 another, you don't say, you are both right. You 15 could say you have a question about it and you can 16 go to another person to resolve it. This document 17 tells you who that other person is. That person 18 is -- Can you tell who that person would be? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 Q Does this document tell you which person 21 that would be who would clarify it? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 23 A I do not have a question on that. 24 Q You don't have a question on that? 0351 1 Lin 2 A You have a question. 3 Q That's right. 4 A You have a disagreement that generates 5 my questions. 6 Q That's right. Okay, let's look at the 7 next sentence. "If you believe that you have 8 violated the code or any applicable law or 9 regulation you must report the violation so that 10 the company can take an appropriate action." 11 MS. PARK: Can take appropriate 12 action, not an appropriate action. 13 MR. LINDNER: Right. Can take 14 appropriate action. 15 Q Now, do you understand that? 16 A I understand that. 17 Q Okay. So, now let's jump to the fourth 18 paragraph, alright? It says, "You should report 19 actual or suspected violations to your leader." 20 We already established your leader is Ash Gupta; 21 right? 22 A Yes. 23 Q "Or your Human Resources 24 representative." We haven't established who that 0352 1 Lin 2 is, or -- it doesn't say the word "Or" it has 3 comas, "Your business unit's compliance office." 4 Do you have a business unit compliance office -- 5 officer? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What's his name? 8 A I'm trying to remember. 9 MS. PARK: Are you asking now or in 10 the 2005. 11 MR. LINDNER: 2005? 12 A 2005 business unit compliance officer? 13 Q Yes. 14 A I do not remember. 15 Q Do you now. 16 A I know for now the business unit I'm in, 17 yes. 18 Q Who is the compliance officer? 19 A There are many compliance officers. 20 Q Do you know any one of them? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Can you give me one name? 23 A Gillian Clements. 24 Q How do you spell that. Gillian? 0353 1 Lin 2 A It's start G. I do not know. 3 Q G-i-l-l-i-a-n, Clements? 4 A I do not know how to spell it. 5 MR. LINDNER: I'm requesting documents 6 on whether Gillian Clements is a compliance 7 officer. It might be C-l-e-m-e-n-t-s but I 8 could be totally wrong. But Ms. Park, I'd 9 like to find if you know who that person 10 is. If you could find out and produce 11 information on whether she has any 12 conversations on suspected violations. 13 MS. PARK: No. 14 MR. LINDNER: Well, I'm demanding it. 15 MS. PARK: Request denied. 16 MR. LINDNER: You don't get to deny 17 it. 18 MS. PARK: Then I reject it. 19 MR. LINDNER: I understand. You try 20 to reject it. 21 Q And then it goes, a general auditor -- a 22 general counsel's office. Do you anybody in the 23 General Counsel's Office? 24 A Yes. 0354 1 Lin 2 Q Whom? 3 A Tim Heine. 4 Q How did you spell the last name? 5 A H-e-i-n-e, I could be wrong. That's to 6 my best. 7 Q Do you know anybody else? 8 A Louise Parent. 9 MR. LINDNER: Parent, like the mother 10 of a child, parent. 11 Q Anybody else? 12 A There are many people I know in General 13 Counsel's office. 14 Q Do you know Jason Brown? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is he in the General Counsel's office? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How do you know Jason Brown? 19 A How do I know Jason Brown? 20 Q Yes. 21 MS. PARK: I want to instruct you not 22 to divulge any information of any 23 communications that you had with Mr. Brown 24 in his capacity as In-House Counsel for 0355 1 Lin 2 American Express. 3 MR. LINDNER: I think we already 4 reviewed that information in DEFO03770. Is 5 that true, Ms. Park? 6 MS. PARK: I'm not testifying. I'm 7 not answering your questions. 8 MR. LINDNER: Well, I'm instructing 9 you to answer. How do you know Jason 10 Brown. 11 MS. PARK: You don't instruct me to 12 answer anything. 13 MR. LINDNER: I'm not instructing you 14 to answer. I'm instructing Qing to answer. 15 A How do I know Jason Brown? 16 Q Yes. 17 A Jason Brown is a lawyer in TCO and he 18 has contacted me and called me about your 19 Complaint of me giving negative reference. 20 Q Okay, so he talked to you about this 21 case? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. That 23 wasn't his testimony. 24 Q Did he talk to you about this case? 0356 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 A So -- 4 Q Did he talk to you about this incident? 5 A What do you mean case? 6 Q Did he talk to you about the incident 7 with you talking to Boaz -- 8 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 9 Q -- about me? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 11 MR. LINDNER: Your objection is noted, 12 Ms. Park. 13 A So, state your question again. 14 MR. LINDNER: Can you read back the 15 question, Marian? 16 (Record read) 17 A What incident? 18 MR. LINDNER: Can you read back the 19 prior question? 20 (Record read) 21 Q Do you understand which case we are 22 talking about? 23 A No, I do not. 24 Q Do you understand why you are here 0357 1 Lin 2 today? Do you understand why you are here? 3 A I understand, yes. 4 Q Why are you here? 5 A Because you have sued American Express 6 and myself. 7 Q Okay. Do you realize that some people 8 call that a law case? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you understand that you spoke to 11 Jason Brown? Yes or no, did you speak to Jason 12 Brown? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Asked 14 and answered. 15 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park? 16 MS. PARK: You can answer it again. 17 THE WITNESS: Ms. Park, so you just 18 instructed about Attorney/Client 19 Privileges? 20 MS. PARK: Please don't testify to any 21 communications you had with Mr. Brown when 22 he was acting in his capacity as In-House 23 Counsel for American Express. 24 A So, about this legal case? 0358 1 Lin 2 Q Yes. 3 A I do not remember having a conversation. 4 So, I cannot testify to that. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Outside of his capacity of Counsel -- 7 Q But you might have talked to him in an 8 Attorney/Client Privilege way but, if you have, 9 you can't confirm or deny it. Is that what you 10 are saying? 11 A I cannot reveal -- 12 Q You cannot reveal whether that is or 13 not. I understand. After the General Counsel 14 Office it says the corporate secretary. Do you 15 know who the corporate secretary is? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Who? 18 A Steve Lohman. 19 Q So, if you suspect a violation, it 20 reads, you can talk to your leader or the general 21 counsel's office or the compliance officer or the 22 corporate secretary is that case? 23 A Violations of -- 24 Q Actual or suspected violation of the 0359 1 Lin 2 Code of Conduct. 3 A Yes. 4 MR. LINDNER: I'm going to give you 5 another document and that document is 6 DEF370. Ms. Park, do you have any 7 objection. 8 MS. PARK: Mark you document, Mr. 9 Lindner. 10 MR. LINDNER: Okay. It is a 11 confidential document. We are going to 12 jump a little bit and we were going to call 13 this Plaintiff's 11. 14 (Whereupon Plaintiff's 15 Exhibit 11 was received and 16 marked for identification, 17 as of this date.) 18 I have a document here that is 19 entitled Chief Credit Officer and 20 Institutional something and collections, 21 Qing Lin. 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form, 23 mischaracterizes the document. 24 MR. LINDNER: It is a multi page 0360 1 Lin 2 document that goes from the number DEF00370 3 to DEF00373. It is a four page document. 4 It is a set of handwritten notes. I want 5 you to take a look at it? 6 MS. PARK: State for the record that 7 Mr. Lindner did not mark any Plaintiff's 8 Exhibits 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 or 10. 9 MR. LINDNER: Yet. 10 Q We have a document here and it's 11 plaintiff's 11 and I'm going to read the beginning 12 and see if it makes sense to you. It says a date. 13 It looks like 2/07 or 2/27 or 2/17 or 2/4/06, 14 Chief Credit Officer something institutional, 15 something and collections, and then it has the 16 words Qing Lin. Does that sound like it might be 17 referring to you? 18 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Why 19 don't you ask him if he recognizes the 20 document before you start asking him to 21 testify about it? 22 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking him does that 23 sound like you. 24 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 0361 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: I understand that. 3 Q Does that sound like you, Qing? What 4 was your title at the beginning of February of 5 2006? 6 A The question is, what was my title? 7 Q Yes. 8 A In February '06? 9 Q Yes. 10 A Senior Vice-President, Chief Credit 11 Officer of Institutional Risk and Collection. 12 Q So, does that look like, if this wasn't 13 cut off, that might be a fair summary of what your 14 title was? 15 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 16 A Your question is does that -- Making the 17 judgment now? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Is it about me? 20 Q Yes. 21 A Sounds like. 22 Q Did you, in fact, see Jason Brown in 23 February of 2006? 24 A I do not remember. 0362 1 Lin 2 Q If this document is true, and it might 3 be. I don't know if you -- Have you ever seen it 4 before? 5 A No. 6 Q When you talked to Jason Brown, did he 7 take any notes when he talked to you? 8 A I do not remember. I remember this as a 9 telephone conversation. 10 Q Okay, so you talked over the phone. 11 A Yes, to my -- 12 Q And you -- 13 A -- best memory. 14 Q That's what I'm asking. 15 MS. PARK: Let him finish answering 16 because I think the record is going to get 17 muddled. 18 Q So, you had a telephone conversation 19 with Jason Brown and this might well be the notes 20 from it? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Are you 22 asking him to speculate? He said he has 23 never seen it before. 24 MR. LINDNER: I didn't ask him whether 0363 1 Lin 2 he saw it before. 3 Q I'm saying, if you had a conversation 4 with Jason Brown was it in person or was it over 5 the phone? 6 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He said 7 he had a telephone conversation. 8 Q Have you also met him in person and 9 spoke about this subject? 10 A I do not remember. 11 Q But you do remember speaking to him on 12 the phone about this? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay, thank you. Now, I'm directing you 15 to about the fifth line, just before the indented 16 section, and it says, Peter. Do you see the word 17 Peter is the first word? 18 A Yes. 19 Q It says, Peter, as I read it, may have 20 given -- it's really anybody's guess as to what 21 that is. We will have to ask Jason Brown. But 22 the next paragraph looks like there is double 23 quote mark, does it not? How would you read it? 24 A I do not know. It's just two dots here. 0364 1 Lin 2 Q Two dots and what is the next word you 3 see? 4 A Peter -- 5 MS. PARK: What two dots? Where are 6 we now? Are you asking him to interpret 7 what he thinks this handwriting says? 8 MR. LINDNER: Yes. 9 Q Okay, so now it says, Peter -- Can you 10 read the sentence? 11 MS. PARK: Which one? Are we still on 12 Peter the -- 13 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, let him answer 14 and then you can ask your question later. 15 A Which one? 16 Q The one with the double dots you were 17 saying. 18 MS. PARK: Double dots? 19 MR. LINDNER: Qing used that phrase. 20 Q Qing, can you just start reading where 21 it says Peter? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you see the word Peter, yes or no? 24 A I see Peter, yes. 0365 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: There are two sentences 3 that start with Peter. 4 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park, that's good. 5 Q Whichever one, please start reading? 6 A Peter is technical -- I don't know -- 7 Guy, it looks like. 8 Q Peter is technical guy, does that sound 9 like something you would say? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 11 A Does that sound like something I would 12 say? 13 Q Yes. 14 A Yes. 15 Q It does. Do you recall saying that? 16 A I do not remember the exact words. I 17 remember, yeah, I do, say that. 18 Q Something to that effect? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What does the next line say? 21 A It's -- 22 Q It's whether. I'll read it. 23 MS. PARK: Are you -- 24 MR. LINDNER: He is having trouble 0366 1 Lin 2 reading it. 3 MS. PARK: Ask him a question, Mr. 4 Lindner. 5 Q Are you having trouble reading that? 6 A Yes, I have trouble reading it. 7 Q So, this is how I read it, whether you 8 hire him or not is your decision. Does that look 9 like it? 10 MS. PARK: Don't guess, Mr. Lin. 11 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking him to guess. 12 MS. PARK: No, and I'm directing him 13 not to guess. 14 MR. LINDNER: Your objection is noted. 15 Q Qing, I'd appreciate an answer. Does it 16 look like it says, Whether you hire him or not is 17 your decision, yes or no? 18 A I'm following my attorney's 19 instructions. 20 Q You could still answer. We could strike 21 it from the record later. Does it look like that 22 or not? Qing, I'm directing you to answer. 23 A I'm not answering, based on my 24 attorney's -- 0367 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Go ahead. If you can 3 answer it, then answer it. But I'm asking 4 you not to guess. 5 A So what do you want me -- 6 Q Does it look like, whether you hire him 7 or not is your decision? Does it look like that 8 or not? 9 A It does look like. 10 Q Is that the type of thing you would say. 11 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 12 Q Did you actually say that to -- 13 A I don't remember saying that. 14 Q -- Jason Brown? 15 A I do not remember saying it to Jason 16 Brown. 17 Q Let's look at the next sentence. This 18 is how I read it. I'm not sure whether he can 19 be -- I can't read the next word, something AXP. 20 Does AXP mean anything to you? 21 A AXP is stock (sic) symbol for American 22 Express. 23 Q So, in effect it's saying, I'm not sure 24 whether he can be something at American Express? 0368 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 Q Yes or no? 4 A What is the question? 5 Q Did you make a statement to anyone that 6 you are not sure whether he can be at American 7 Express? 8 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 9 Q Did you make such a statement, because 10 these are Jason's notes that -- 11 A I don't know what the statement is 12 because I do not understand the statement first. 13 But, if you are asking me now, I do not remember 14 saying anything regarding that. I do not remember 15 it. 16 Q You don't remember it. Okay. Actually, 17 I had a conversation with Jason Brown and he told 18 me that you said that, Peter, I'm not sure if 19 Peter Lindner can work here, and this document 20 says, I'm not sure whether he can be, I'm not 21 sure, at American Express. So, what I was told by 22 Jason Brown was, I don't know whether Peter 23 Lindner can work here. And because Jason made 24 that sentence, as I understand it, I'm able to see 0369 1 Lin 2 this document. In other words, that broke the 3 Attorney/Client Privilege? 4 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 5 Q Yes. So, it goes on further and it 6 says, something -- no discussion with Boaz about 7 this. Do you see that? 8 MS. PARK: Objection to form? 9 A Which line? 10 Q Keep going. It says, Boaz asked did 11 you -- something -- leadership -- Lin -- 12 something -- discussing with Boaz about this? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 14 Q Do you see that? 15 A I see this line. I cannot read the 16 handwriting. 17 Q Do you see the word Boaz? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. So, anyhow, this is a document 20 that talks about Peter, the technical guy, which 21 you feel you might have said. It describes your 22 position; is that correct? 23 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 24 Q Qing, does it describe your position, 0370 1 Lin 2 your title at the time? 3 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 4 hasn't testified that he has seen this -- 5 MR. LINDNER: I'm not asking him 6 whether he has seen this. 7 MS. PARK: You're asking him to 8 interpret the handwriting on that. 9 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking him -- 10 A Peter, your question is, as of now, I'm 11 sitting here -- 12 Q Yes. 13 A -- reading this handwriting document 14 what it says here? 15 Q Yes. 16 A And I have to tell you it is not 17 complete sentence. I cannot read part of this 18 handwriting. 19 Q I know it's part of a sentence. 20 A So, that I do not know. And you are 21 asking what was my title during February 2006 -- 22 Q Yes? 23 A -- and I gave you my answer. 24 Q Which was very similar to what he has at 0371 1 Lin 2 the top of the page, assuming Jason Brown wrote 3 this? 4 A I can't read part of the sentence so -- 5 Q Well, you can words in the sentence and 6 -- 7 A Something can overlap with my title. 8 Q Right. Okay. Did Jason Brown tell you 9 why he called you? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 11 hasn't testified who called whom. 12 Q Did you call Jason? 13 A No. 14 Q Did Jason call you? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did he tell you why he called you? 17 A So, the conversation he called to ask 18 question, yes. 19 Q Did he tell you was he calling on his 20 own initiative or was he calling on someone else's 21 behalf? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 23 A So, I do not understand what do you mean 24 someone else behalf? 0372 1 Lin 2 Q In other words, did he say, You know, I 3 was thinking about you and I thought I'd ask you 4 this question. That would be one example. Or did 5 he say, Somebody asked me to give you a call? 6 A I do not remember if he told me either 7 someone asked him to give me a call. He give me a 8 reason why he call me but -- 9 Q What was that reason? 10 A Because you complained about me giving 11 you a bad reference. 12 Q And therefor he decided to call you? 13 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 14 A I do not know what he decide or not so 15 -- 16 Q You -- 17 A I don't know why he decided he call me. 18 Q What made him decide to call you? 19 A I don't know what his rationale. He 20 called me, yes. 21 Q Well, I'll tell you what that rationale 22 is. Do you wish to know what his is rationale is, 23 as I understand it? 24 A For the interest of time -- 0373 1 Lin 2 Q Yes, in the interest of time. 3 MS. PARK: And, Mr. Lin, I'll instruct 4 you that you don't have to accept Mr. 5 Lindner's characterization or rationale. 6 Q Do you wish to know? 7 A No. 8 Q By the way, in that conversation with 9 Jason Brown, did you take any notes? 10 A In this conversation? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I do not think so. 13 Q If you had, where would they be? 14 A I do not think I took notes. 15 Q Do you think that Jason was on your 16 calendar or he just called? 17 A I do not remember. He could have just 18 called me. 19 Q Okay, here we go. It took a while but I 20 found it. Do you recall what the date is on that 21 handwritten document? 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 23 Q Do you see what that date is at the top 24 of the document? 0374 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 3 A I cannot tell. It is 2/ something '06. 4 Q And that, I would take to mean 5 February 2006. Is that how you would interpret 6 it? 7 A It could be. 8 Q What else could it be? 9 A I do not know. It says, 2 something 10 '06. Are you asking me to read it? 11 MR. LINDNER: Yes. I was asking for 12 your opinion. I'm introducing, I hope, my 13 last exhibit, Exhibit Plaintiff's 5. 14 (Whereupon Plaintiff's 15 Exhibit 5 was received and 16 marked for identification, 17 as of this date.) 18 Q Here we go. Here is a document and it's 19 dated. It has a date on it. So, I'm going to 20 show it to you. Qing, I hope you could look at 21 it. It is a document that is multi paged. It has 22 many pages in it. It might be anywhere from six 23 to eight pages in it. Maybe more. Maybe less. 24 It is dated Tuesday, January 17, 2006. It is to 0375 1 Lin 2 Mr. Steven Norman. And -- 3 MS. PARK: Yeah, and I'm going to note 4 for the record there is no indication that 5 this document was produced to me, since it 6 has no bate stamp numbering, which your 7 attorneys did put on all the documents that 8 were produced to me, Mr. Lindner. So, this 9 causes me some concern. 10 MR. LINDNER: I share your concern. I 11 wish I could have given it to you in ESI 12 format but unfortunately we didn't have 13 that and my lawyer didn't request it and I 14 think he made mistakes. I think if we got 15 the electronic format we would not have had 16 those mistakes. 17 Q So, in it is a letter from me, Peter 18 Lindner, to Steven Norman, with a copy to Boaz 19 Salik. Do you see that, Qing? 20 A I'm sorry? 21 Q Do you see who the letter is to? 22 MS. PARK: Why don't you ask him if he 23 recognizes it? 24 Q Do you recognize the letter? 0376 1 Lin 2 A No, I do not recognize this. 3 Q I didn't think so because you weren't 4 copied on it, but do you see who it is to, the 5 letter is to? 6 MS. PARK: We stipulate that this 7 document appears to be addressed to Mr. 8 Norman, Steven Norman. I stipulate that 9 the document has a CC on it, which 10 indicates Boaz.Salik@FisherJordan.com. 11 Q And the point here is that I had a 12 serious -- The first sentence says, "Thanks for 13 taking the time to call me this morning about the 14 serious matter of Qing Lin violating the agreement 15 between me and American Express." 16 MS. PARK: I stipulate that that's 17 what the first sentence of this document 18 says. 19 Q So, can you hazard a guess? You haven't 20 seen this document. What this document is about? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 A I do not know. I do not know what the 23 purpose he write this. I have not finished 24 reading it. It's a long document. 0377 1 Lin 2 Q It is a long document but based upon the 3 first sentence. 4 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 5 Q What is your conclusion, based upon the 6 first sentence? 7 A I do not have conclusion. I can read 8 the first sentence back to you. 9 Q And read it. 10 MS. PARK: No. 11 Q Please read it out loud. 12 MS. PARK: We stipulate it says, 13 "Thanks for taking the time -- 14 MR. LINDNER: He said he doesn't 15 understand it. I don't want you to read 16 it, Ms. Park. 17 MS. PARK: You have your answer. He 18 doesn't understand it. Move on. 19 Q Can you please read the sentence out 20 loud, Qing? 21 A "Thanks for taking the time to call me 22 this morning about this serious matter of Mr. Qing 23 Lin violating the agreement between me and 24 American Express. 0378 1 Lin 2 Q Do you understand that sentence? 3 A Yes, I do. 4 Q You know earlier Ms. Park said that you 5 didn't understand it, and there is no need to ask 6 you because we should move on. But I think when 7 you read it, you understood it; is that correct? 8 A So the question is, you ask me whether I 9 can draw conclusion based on -- 10 Q No, I'm asking -- 11 A No, could you state the question? Could 12 you go back to the question, Marian? 13 MR. LINDNER: Very good. Please go 14 back to the question. 15 A His question about this sentence. 16 MS. PARK: Ask your next question, 17 Mr. Lindner. 18 (Record read) 19 Q Do you understand the sentence now? 20 MS. PARK: The first sentence. 21 A Yes, I understand. 22 Q And earlier you said you didn't 23 understand it. 24 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 0379 1 Lin 2 Q I'm pointing out to Ms. Park, answering 3 Ms. Park when she said, Look, Qing didn't 4 understand it, let's move on. I asked you, 5 instead of moving on, to read the sentence out 6 loud and then you understood it because it's a 7 fairly simple sentence. 8 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 9 A I did not say I did not understand it. 10 Q Maybe you didn't. I thought -- 11 A I cannot draw a conclusion from this. 12 Q I stand corrected but actually thought 13 you did say that. I thought she read that again. 14 The point of the fact is that that document is my 15 asking Steven Norman to initiate an investigation 16 of your violation of the agreement, and I was 17 doing it on the basis of the Code of Conduct, 18 because he is listed as being one of the people to 19 contact. I don't know who your compliance officer 20 is but I'm an Amex shareholder and that's how I 21 got Steve Norman's name. You notice it is dated 22 January 17 which is prior to Jason Brown talking 23 to you. 24 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 0380 1 Lin 2 Mischaracterizing his testimony. 3 MR. LINDNER: Which part am I 4 mischaracterizing? 5 MS. PARK: Mr. Lin testified that he 6 does not know or recall when he spoke with 7 Mr. Brown. 8 MR. LINDNER: That's right, and he 9 doesn't need to. But there is a note that 10 has a quote that he recognized Peter is a 11 technical guy -- 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. He 13 didn't even know what that document was and 14 you're asking -- 15 MR. LINDNER: He doesn't have to know. 16 MS. PARK: Sure he does. You're 17 making him assume facts that he has not 18 testified to. 19 MR. LINDNER: Maybe. You know, you 20 don't have to know something to all of a 21 sudden recognize the facts or whatever. 22 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 23 MR. LINDNER: Actually, I was wrong. 24 There are actually two more, documents. 0381 1 Lin 2 There might be just one more depending how 3 we go with this. 4 (Whereupon Plaintiff's 5 Exhibit 6 was received and 6 marked for identification, 7 as of this date.) 8 MS. PARK: I want to note for the 9 record that Plaintiff's 6 is also a 10 document that Mr. Lindner apparently did 11 not see fit to produce to me. 12 MR. LINDNER: Sorry that it was not 13 done. Can we perhaps agree that we should 14 transfer documents electronically so that 15 we can get all the documents -- 16 MS. PARK: No. 17 MR. LINDNER: -- and I have them 18 medadata (sic) with it -- 19 MS. PARK: No. 20 MR. LINDNER: -- because I think this 21 was through an oversight? 22 MS. PARK: No. 23 Q Qing, this date is from April 23rd and 24 it has an attachment which -- 0382 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: Is not included. Why don't 3 you ask him if he recognizes this document 4 since his name doesn't appear to be on it 5 anywhere? 6 MR. LINDNER: His name does not appear 7 to be on it? 8 MS. PARK: Sure. Where is there any 9 indication that Mr. Lin was a recipient of 10 this document. 11 MR. LINDNER: Well, it doesn't, 12 actually. What it does is, it had an 13 attachment, and I see that attachment was 14 Exhibit 7. How often can I apologize to 15 give you an exhibit and this was the 16 attached document. 17 (Whereupon Plaintiff's 18 Exhibit 7 was received and 19 marked for identification, 20 as of this date.) 21 Q So, the letter from Jason Brown to me, 22 do you see what date it is? 23 MS. PARK: What exhibit are you 24 referring to? 0383 1 Lin 2 MR. LINDNER: The letter from Jason 3 Brown? 4 MS. PARK: There are two letters from 5 Jason Brown, what one are you referring to? 6 MR. LINDNER: The one previous to 7 that. I haven't handed it to Qing yet. 8 Please, Ms. Park -- 9 MS. PARK: Which exhibit? 10 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park. 11 Q Do you have a letter from Jason Brown, 12 Qing? 13 A No. 14 Q You don't have any letter? How about 15 Exhibit 6? 16 A Exhibit 6, yes. 17 Q Who's it from? 18 A From Jason Brown. 19 Q Okay. 20 A It looks like an e-mail. 21 Q It looks like an e-mail, it is an e-mail 22 and he wrote that letter and it says "An 23 attachment." Do you see the attachment? It says, 24 "Amex 1 268984 letter Peter Lindner DOC. 0384 1 Lin 2 A Which -- 3 Q Under "From/To," sent attach? Do you 4 see: From? 5 A Okay. 6 Q As best I can tell, this is the 7 attachment. Could you take a look at it? 8 MS. PARK: And you don't have to 9 accept his representation. 10 MR. LINDNER: The interesting thing is 11 that this is a document from Jason Brown. 12 So, Ms. Park -- 13 MS. PARK: Mr. Brown is not sitting 14 here. Qing Lin is sitting here. 15 MR. LINDNER: Did you give me that 16 document? 17 MS. PARK: I'm not answering your 18 questions. Ask questions of Mr. Lin. 19 MR. LINDNER: If you haven't given me 20 this document, then I make the demand that 21 it is to be produced. 22 MS. PARK: Ask your question. 23 MR. LINDNER: Ms. Park -- 24 MS. PARK: I'm not responding. Ask 0385 1 Lin 2 your question. 3 Q Do you see the date on that letter, 4 Qing? 5 MS. PARK: Which letter? 6 MR. LINDNER: Plaintiff's 7? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What is the date? 9 MS. PARK: We stipulate it says 10 April 10, 2006. 11 Q Can you read the first two sentences? 12 A Two sentences -- 13 MS. PARK: Objection. The document 14 speaks for itself. 15 Q I'd like -- 16 MS. PARK: Why don't you ask him if he 17 has ever seen this document? 18 MR. LINDNER: I'm not asking him that. 19 I'm asking him to first read it. 20 Q So, can you read the first two 21 sentences? 22 A Out loud? 23 Q Out loud, please? 24 A "I write in response to the allegations 0386 1 Lin 2 raised in your numerous letters and e-mails to me, 3 Steve Norman and Ash Gupta. I have investigated 4 your allegations and found them to be without 5 merit." 6 Q Third sentence too. 7 MS. PARK: The document speaks for 8 itself, Mr. Lindner. 9 MR. LINDNER: It does, but I like to 10 hear it spoken in Qing's words? 11 A "There is no evidence that Qing Lin or 12 anyone else at American Express breached the 13 Settlement Agreement and the Release between you 14 and the company." 15 Q Do you know what the Settlement 16 Agreement is, Qing? 17 A The Settlement Agreement? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Yes, I know now. 20 Q You know now? 21 A Yes. 22 Q So, you realize that I wrote, now 23 looking at these documents and seeing, assuming 24 they are genuine -- 0387 1 Lin 2 MS. PARK: What documents are you 3 referring to? 4 MR. LINDNER: I'm referring to several 5 documents. There was one document, 6 Plaintiff's Exhibit 5, which was from Peter 7 Lindner to Steven Norman, saying, "Dear Mr. 8 Norman, Thanks for taking the time to call 9 me this morning about the serious matter of 10 Qing Lin violating the agreement between me 11 and American Express. That was written 12 January 17th. Then we have a document 13 written -- 14 MS. PARK: Is there a question? 15 Q Is that correct? 16 A What is correct? 17 Q That that document from Tuesday, January 18 17th, from me to Mr. Norman, Plaintiff's Exhibit 19 5 -- 20 A That document, what is correct? 21 Q That it's from me to Steven Norman? 22 A So, your question is: Is this document, 23 as I read it now, is it from you to Steve Norman? 24 Q Yes. 0388 1 Lin 2 A As I read it now, it looks like. 3 Q And the date on that is? 4 MS. PARK: We stipulated January 17, 5 2006. 6 MR. LINDNER: Okay, but I'm trying to 7 go continuously here. 8 Q The next document was DEF 370 and that 9 was a handwritten note, which you have in front of 10 you -- 11 A Okay. 12 Q -- and that one is dated February. So, 13 we have a letter from me to Steven Norman in 14 January. Now we have a document from Jason Brown 15 in February -- 16 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 17 Q -- that has a quote from you, namely 18 that Peter is a technical guy; is that -- 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 Q -- is that true? 21 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 22 Q How would you -- 23 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 24 A I have not seen this document before, so 0389 1 Lin 2 I do not know. 3 Q You actually saw it a few minutes ago? 4 A No, I have not seen this document 5 before. 6 Q Before today? 7 A Yes. 8 Q But you saw it today; right? 9 A I saw it today, yes. 10 Q And you stated that this sentence, that 11 Peter is a technical guy, sounds like something 12 you would say, correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And that is in February and now we have 15 -- 16 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 17 Q And now we have a document which is from 18 April 10th where -- 19 MS. PARK: What's the exhibit number? 20 MR. LINDNER: Exhibit Number 21 Plaintiff's 7? 22 A Okay. 23 Q -- where Jason Brown writes back to me, 24 saying that he looked into the allegations about 0390 1 Lin 2 Qing Lin violating the code, because there were 3 numerous letters between me, meaning Peter; me, 4 meaning Jason Brown; Steven Norman and Ash Gupta. 5 So, what I'm concluding here, and I'm 6 asking you if you think this conclusion is 7 correct, that I wrote a letter in January to 8 Steven Norman. Jason Brown was told by Steven 9 Norman to investigate and talk to you, and he did 10 so by telephone, and then on April 10th Jason 11 Brown did the investigation and concluded that you 12 were not involved in a violation. Does that sound 13 reasonable? 14 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 15 A So, Peter, I have not seen these 16 documents before and I do not know whether this 17 document is a fact or not. So, I cannot draw 18 conclusion based on something. 19 Q I understand but I think you can draw a 20 conclusion assuming that they are genuine and, by 21 the way, all of these documents are what American 22 Express has. So, assuming that they are genuine, 23 can you conclude that Jason Norman was contacted 24 by Steven -- that Jason Brown was contacted by 0391 1 Lin 2 Steven Norman and he wrote this report and he 3 reported back to me? 4 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 5 A I cannot draw that conclusion because I 6 do not know what I has happened to it. I do not 7 want to draw that conclusion. I do not know 8 because that's your conclusion, your logic 9 deduction. 10 Q What is your logic deduction? 11 A I do not have logic deduction. There is 12 not enough information to deduct. 13 Q What information do you need? 14 A I don't know. You are asking me to draw 15 conclusion based on this piece of information? 16 Q Yes, that is what I'm asking? 17 A I cannot. 18 Q Going one step further, Steven Norman 19 was the corporate secretary that was listed in the 20 Code of Conduct; correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I do not know whether he is listed on 24 the Code of Conduct or not but he is a corporate 0392 1 Lin 2 secretary, yes. 3 Q Is he a corporate secretary now? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Was he a corporate secretary in 2005? 6 A I believe so. 7 Q I believe so too. That is why I have 8 that letter to him. Is Steven Norman in your 9 organization? 10 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 11 Q What organization is Steven Norman in? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 13 Q Do you know Steven Norman? 14 A I know him. 15 Q Do you know what organization he is in? 16 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 17 A I do not know. He has a title of 18 corporate secretary. 19 Q What corporation? 20 A American Express. 21 Q What corporation does Ash Gupta work 22 for? 23 A American Express. 24 Q What corporation do you work for? 0393 1 Lin 2 A American Express. 3 Q So, if I had a problem with you, does it 4 make sense that I would have a problem with 5 American Express? 6 MS. PARK: Objection to form. Do you 7 want him to read your mind? 8 A I don't know what your question is. 9 Q If I have a problem with you and I want 10 to go to your corporation, what corporation would 11 I go to? 12 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 13 A I don't know. That's your decision. 14 Q If somebody asked what corporation do 15 you work for because I want to file a complaint, 16 what corporation do you work for? 17 A So your -- 18 Q You don't know which corporation you 19 work for? 20 A I don't understand your question because 21 you have a qualification on the question. 22 Q What corporation do you work for? 23 A As of now? 24 Q Yes. 0394 1 Lin 2 A American Express. 3 Q What corporation did you work for in 4 2005? 5 A American Express. 6 Q So, if I had a problem with you in 2005 7 and I wanted to go to the corporation, what 8 corporation would I go to? 9 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 10 A That's your decision. 11 Q I understand but would I go to General 12 Electric, for instance? Are they part of American 13 Express? 14 A I don't know. Your decision. 15 Q Let me ask you a question: Is General 16 Electric part of American Express? 17 A No. 18 Q So, if I had a problem with you and I 19 went to General Electric, that would be a mistake, 20 don't you think? 21 A I don't know, that is your judgment. 22 Q Would you advise him? 23 A So, Peter are you asking me sitting here 24 my judgment. 0395 1 Lin 2 Q Yes. 3 A You can decide go to GE. 4 Q If somebody has, for instance -- 5 MS. PARK: Asked and answered. Move 6 on. 7 Q I'm asking you a very simple question. 8 This is not a trick question. If you go to Macy's 9 and you have problem with a store guy there, you 10 don't go to K-Mart to complain about it, you go to 11 Macy's, if Macy's is the company that the store 12 person worked for. Is that correct? When you 13 have a problem with an employee, you go to the 14 corporate -- 15 A It depends on situation. 16 Q How about if they have a problem with an 17 American Express employee? What corporation 18 should they go to? 19 MS. PARK: Objection to form. 20 A So, in your Macy's example, right? 21 Q Yes. 22 A If a Macy's employee stab me with a 23 knife I'll not call Macy's, I'll call police. 24 Q Right. That's an interesting question. 0396 1 Lin 2 I think that's criminal law. But there is another 3 law called Civil Law. So, if they did something 4 that violated -- let's say they just did something 5 rude, and you just wanted to write to somebody 6 about it, because at that point this was not a 7 legal issue, this was just a question of not doing 8 something right. 9 So, what corporation should I write to? 10 Like, for instance, you might be a wholly owned 11 subsidiary of a larger corporation. Is American 12 Express a subsidiary of another corporation? 13 A So, Peter, you have stated a long 14 question. I'm sorry, I could not understand your 15 question. 16 Q Is American Express a subsidiary of 17 another corporation? 18 A No. 19 Q And you work for American Express? 20 A Yes. 21 Q The title of the suit is Lindner versus 22 American Express. Do you feel -- 23 MS. PARK: Asked and answered. 24 Q Do you feel that's an accurate -- 0397 1 Lin 2 A I do not know. 3 Q So, if it said, Lindner versus General 4 Electric, you would feel you wouldn't known that 5 either? 6 A That is your decision who to sue. 7 Q No, no, the statement says American 8 Express. 9 MS. PARK: Mr. Lindner -- 10 MR. LINDNER: Please -- 11 Q It says, Lindner versus American 12 Express; right? 13 MS. PARK: We stipulate your 14 Complaint -- 15 Q American Express Corporation? 16 A Yes. 17 Q That is the corporation you work for; 18 right? 19 A Yes. 20 Q If it said, Lindner versus American 21 Express Travel Related Services, is that the 22 company you work for? 23 A I do not know the legal structure. Yes, 24 it could be. 0398 1 Lin 2 Q Do you work for Travel Related Services? 3 A I do not know. At this moment Travel 4 Related Services we don't go by the business unit 5 internally. So, I do not know the legal 6 structures. 7 Q You work for American Express, yes or 8 no? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you work for American Express Travel 11 Related Services? 12 MS. PARK: Objection, asked and 13 answered. 14 MR. LINDNER: I'm asking him a 15 question. 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm going to run 17 out of tape. 18 MR. LINDNER: Okay, I understand, 19 please. 20 A I do not know at this moment. 21 Q You don't know if work with Travel 22 Related Services? 23 A I do not know. 24 Q Do you work for American Express? 0399 1 Lin 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you work for American Express, 4 Corporation? 5 A Yes. 6 MR. LINDNER: Thank you very much. 7 End of the deposition. Do you have any 8 objections to ending this? I'd like to 9 adjourn the deposition, but I think I'm 10 done, but I have to check the transcript. 11 MS. PARK: No, I'm not. This is it, 12 Mr. Lindner. This is it. We are not 13 producing Mr. Lin again. 14 MR. LINDNER: Well, I think I have 15 enough but if something comes up, if I get 16 all my documents, I think I'll be okay. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes 18 today's proceedings. The total number of 19 tapes used was five. We are off the record 20 at 7:11. 21 (Time noted 7:11 p.m.) 22 23 24 0400 2 WITNESS CORRECTION SHEET 3 4 PAGE \ LINE \ CORRECTION 5 __________________________________________________ 6 __________________________________________________ 7 __________________________________________________ 8 __________________________________________________ 9 __________________________________________________ 10 __________________________________________________ 11 __________________________________________________ 12 __________________________________________________ 13 __________________________________________________ 14 __________________________________________________ 15 __________________________________________________ 16 __________________________________________________ 17 __________________________________________________ 18 __________________________________________________ 19 __________________________________________________ 20 __________________________________________________ 21 22 _________________________ QING LIN 23 Subscribed and sworn to before me 24 this _____ day of ____________, 2009 0401 1 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 2 ) SS: 3 COUNTY OF WESTCHESTER) 4 I, , a , do 5 hereby certify that having been first duly 6 sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth, 7 and nothing but the truth, gave the above 8 deposition, which was recorded stenographically 9 and reduced to this original transcript. 10 11 I FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing 12 transcript of the said deposition is a true and 13 correct transcript of the testimony given by me at 14 the time and place specified herein before. 15 16 I FURTHER CERTIFY that any corrections 17 or changes to this testimony hae been made by me on 18 the page provided for that purpose captioned 19 "Witness's Correction Sheet," which has also been 20 signed by me before a Notary Public. 21 ________________________ QING LIN 22 Subscribed and sworn to before me this _____ day 23 of ______________ 2009. Notary Public 23 0402 1 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 2 3 I, MARIAN PENDER O'NEILL, a Court Reporter 4 and Notary Public within and for the State 5 of New York, do hereby certify: 6 That the witness whose deposition 7 is herein before set forth, was duly sworn 8 by me, and that the within transcript is a 9 true record of the testimony given by such 10 witness. 11 I further certify that I am not 12 related to any of the parties to this action 13 by blood or marriage, and that I am in no way 14 interested in the outcome of this matter. 15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 16 set my hand this day of , 2009. 17 18 19 20 ______________________ 21 MARIAN PENDER O'NEILL 22 23 0403 1 I N D E X 2 3 WITNESS 4 Qing Lin 5 6 EXAMINATION BY PAGE 7 Mr. Lindner 4 8 o0o 9 10 INFORMATION TO BE PROVIDED PAGE 11 Provide Mr. Lin's resume when 39 he applied to American Express 12 13 Provide log of messages Mr. Lin 76 sent to Fisher Jordan 14 15 Provide organization charts from 168 1998/1999 16 17 Provide any documents that 252 Mr. Lin has made reference to 18 that have not been produced 19 20 Provide documents relating to 260 Fisher Jordan contracts 21 22 (Continued on the following page) 23 0404 1 I N D E X 2 3 INFORMATION TO BE PROVIDED PAGE 4 5 Provide Tessa Alert's phone 269 number 6 7 Provide Tessa Alert's schedule 272 8 Provide name of group who checked 275 Mr. Lin's calender 9 10 Provide personel file for Qing Lin 285 11 Provide documents that would list 290 who instructed whom 12 13 Provide document that shows who 290 instructed Ash Gupta 14 15 Provide documents on Gillian Clements 353 16 Provide document from Jason Brown 384 17 18 MARKED FOR A RULING PAGE 19 20 Line 13 through 17 30 21 22 (Continued on the following page) 23 0405 1 I N D E X 2 3 MARKED FOR A RULING PAGE 4 5 Line 7 through line 16 35-37 6 Line 5 through 12 43 7 Line 5 through 8 45 8 Line 23 through 3 169-170 9 10 11 (Continued on the following page) 12 13 14 15 E X H I B I T S 16 17 PLAINTIFF'S PAGE 18 19 1 Settlement Agreement and 160 General Release 20 21 2 Amended Complaint 181 22 3 Answer 182 23 4 American Express Code of 299 Conduct 23 0406 1 5 E-mails 374 2 6 E-mails 381 3 7 Letter 382 4 11 Copies of handwritten notes 359 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23